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What if ... >> honest opinion on dogfighting?


5/15/07 12:09 PM
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RamK
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 08/29/2003
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If you put me in a pit with another human being, and convince me that that person is going to hurt me, and I fight him because im convinced he might hurt me, thats not a choice. I dont think breeders have a conversation with their dogs about whether they would like to play fetch or be placed in a situation of a fight.
5/15/07 1:20 PM
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SOLDAT
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 12/13/2005
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"All the reasons that a certain appearance is defined as ideal for a breed is because that appearances is ideal for it to function as it was intended." I don't believe that is entirely true. Some breeds have their standards written better than others. There are things in breed standards that have little to do with function however. An example of this is certain colorations that are punished that have little to do with ability. http://www.wildsidekennels.com/articles/wskboots_small.jpg The above is a picture of a coloration that is deemed undesirable in Amstafs it has nothing to do with the dogs health temperment or ability. If you look at many dog breeds that are bred solely for preformance you see a much broader range in looks, because looks dont matter preformance does. Furhtermore if strict adherence to breed standard created the ideal working dog then why is it that the top working lines are not the top show lines? Why is it that you cannot find an American line (note American line not american breeder) of GSD that can consistantly produce quality working dogs? If you wanted a border collie to herd sheep would you rather have a pup from a kennel that was full of dogs that had perfect adherence to the breed standard but hadn't seen a sheep for generation or one from a pair of collies that earned their keep working sheep on a ranch. Another way to look at it is like this, imagine you wanted to create the ideal MMA fighter. So we sat down and made a standard that attempted to reflect the attributes that are seen as desirable for a fighter. We might include things such as he should look fit, because fitness is vital for fighting. You dont want them to be knocked out easily so you include that a strong thick neck is desirable. You can imagine other things that might be included. Ask your self this question in the end would we get Phil Baronis and James Thompsons or Sakurabas, Vovchanchins and Fedors? Breeding showdogs to the breed standard cannot possibly result in the consitent production of dogs that will be better workers than dogs created by breeding for those working traits. The one is breeding dogs that look like they can do a job the second is breeding dogs that have proven they can. The problem is made worse when certain desirable traits become over emphasized. Broad heads in the case of englsh bulldogs. Further more even when the breed standar is well written and traits listed are things that make a difference in the dogs ability these things are often only paid lip service. Running around in a small circle in show ring simply cannot show whether the dog posses that trait. Take the below excerpt from the UKC standard for APBTs. "This breed combines strength and athleticism with grace and agility" How is that measured running in a small cirlce? The following is from the Dogo Argentino breed standard it is highly aplicable to producing quality working dogs "As a hunter, it is smart, silent, courageous and brave." How in the world is this measured in a show ring? Catching a 400 lb boar takes a smart couragous and brave dog looking pretty in a show ring does not. Breeding for shows can in no way asure these essential traits remain.
5/15/07 1:52 PM
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smac1
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 03/06/2006
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"Furhtermore if strict adherence to breed standard created the ideal working dog then why is it that the top working lines are not the top show lines? Why is it that you cannot find an American line (note American line not american breeder) of GSD that can consistantly produce quality working dogs?" Because judges often reward dogs that don't actually conform to the standard. Extreme is rewarded in many breeds. this is a travesty. "How in the world is this measured in a show ring? Catching a 400 lb boar takes a smart couragous and brave dog looking pretty in a show ring does not. Breeding for shows can in no way asure these essential traits remain." If you think that a dog will get put up by a competent judge because it looks pretty you are incorrect. How the dog behaves in the ring, which is a very unique environment can actually tell a competent judge a lot about the dogs temperament. A weak dog will be flinching and hiding behind it's handler in no time. It is pretty hard to slip a weak dog past a competent judge who has 10 or more years experience with the breed (though people pay pro handers lots of money to try). I can look at a Dobe across the room and often tell you that it has temperament flaws, imagine what a true judge can do with their hands on the dog in a ring full of distractions and other dogs. I'm not for a second saying that the show ring is the be all and end all, people need to be titling dogs on both ends, working there dogs in the capacity they were intended (and anything else they want to work them in) and judges need to be rewarding dogs that truly meet the standard, not rewarding extreme overdone dogs like many do right now. The more you do with your dog the more you will know about them. The show ring is a piece of the puzzle, the various working arenas are part of the puzzle. The more we know about a dog the better we can evaluate it's place in the preservation of the breed. But honestly dogs with poor temperaments literally fall apart in the show ring. A working dog that is not courageous will fall to pieces. It is a much more stressful environment for a dog than many realize. I agree that some standards are better than others and I am opposed to color restrictions except when they have a strong basis in the dog doing what it is bred for. For instance there is a group of scumbags perpetuating a gene that causes albinism in Dobermans, they are breeding them relentlessly and calling them "White", I'm sorry but a dog with the health issues associated with this disease is not fit to do a Dobermans job and should not be bred. As such they are excluded from the show ring. We worked hard to keep the AKC from registering them, and continue to work hard to keep potential puppy owners from supporting the scumbags who are perpetuating a damaging genetic mutation for profit. While I don't think blue and fawn Dobes should be kept out of the ring, I do think that it should considered a fault as there are a host of coat and other issues associated with these dogs. In otherwords, a fawn or blue Dobe better be spectacular to get put up in my eyes. I do want exceptional specimens of the breed who happen to be fawn or blue to be put up because we can breed this out in the next generation by breeding them to a dominant dog (you have to double up on recessives to get blues or fawns). But if two dogs are equal in all other areas I want to see judges putting up the Black and Red Dogs.
5/15/07 2:00 PM
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smac1
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Edited: 15-May-07
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""You all talkn all this tough shit on the net about how youd kill a dogfighter wouldnt make any comments at a fight,or even look at one the wrong way,i guarantee you that" I would.
5/15/07 2:36 PM
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WrestlingSucks
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 12/30/2003
Posts: 15764
It's just the white trash olympics, imo
5/15/07 2:55 PM
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SOLDAT
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 12/13/2005
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""How in the world is this measured in a show ring? Catching a 400 lb boar takes a smart couragous and brave dog looking pretty in a show ring does not. Breeding for shows can in no way asure these essential traits remain." "If you think that a dog will get put up by a competent judge because it looks pretty you are incorrect. How the dog behaves in the ring, which is a very unique environment can actually tell a competent judge a lot about the dogs temperament. A weak dog will be flinching and hiding behind it's handler in no time." I completely agree but being handled in the show ring really doesn't require the same attributes as a boar hunt. A dog that could easily deal with handling in the show ring may not be able to deal with the 4" tusks of nast boar that is hell bent on killing it. Furthermore a show ring doesnt in anyway test the dogs actual ability to hunt or if the dog will hunt silently, something put in the breed standard for a very good reason. "Because judges often reward dogs that don't actually conform to the standard. Extreme is rewarded in many breeds. this is a travesty." I completely agree and that is the problem with people breeding to win dog shows. That said I would still contend that dogs bred with health and performance as the primary goals will typically be better at their given task then dogs bred with the primary goal of being show winners by conforming to the standard, even with the qualification that the standard is being correctly interpreted. Again think about the question I posed about with collie you would rather buy as your potential sheep herder. For me it comes down to what I want a dog to be. I really only have interest in working dogs. Yes I want my dogs to be my best friend and a loyal companion but I want dogs that are capable doing their given tasks. The dogs on my families ranch need to be able to herd animals period. If I have a sighthound (or lurcher) it needs to be able to catch game period. When I owned gun dogs they proved the worth in the field. My neighbor has hounds he runs on bear guess what he cares about? Whether the dogs can be taken hunting. At the end of the day what matters to me is how well a dog does what it is (and perhaps I should write, ought to be) bred to do. You measure a dogs ability by the way it preforms the task. I agree completely that through other situations, one of them being showing, you can tell a lot about an animal and his temperement and have an idea of his potential but you cant know how good of a catch dog you have unless he catches, you cant know how good of a hound you have unless he hunts, you dont know how good of a sled dog you have unless you hook him up to a sled. "I'm not for a second saying that the show ring is the be all and end all, people need to be titling dogs on both ends, working there dogs in the capacity they were intended (and anything else they want to work them in) and judges need to be rewarding dogs that truly meet the standard, not rewarding extreme overdone dogs like many do right now. The more you do with your dog the more you will know about them." I totaly agree. This is why the Europeans lines of many breeds are so much better. With GSD for example in geramny you cant register a litter of pups if the the dont come from a parent with a Schutzhund title. In the state you can AKC register the pups of any two dogs that were registered. They could have server health problems. They could both be fear biters etc etc. No problem they can still be registered. Nothing inherently wrong with breeding a dog to have conformation to the standard but to breed a dog that is not a proven worker is IMO irresponsible.
5/15/07 2:56 PM
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Jim York
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 05/10/2007
Posts: 19
who bloody cares this is an mma forum.
5/15/07 3:59 PM
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jujitsujamo
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 05/04/2004
Posts: 609
ANYONE who condones, appreciates, respects, understands, or defends dogfighting is a retarded redneck. This is a scientific fact.
5/15/07 4:36 PM
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smac1
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Edited: 15-May-07
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" Nothing inherently wrong with breeding a dog to have conformation to the standard but to breed a dog that is not a proven worker is IMO irresponsible." Agreed, I just feel that we should be working to both. The physical structure defined in a good standard is defined as such because that is the ideal structure to perform the task the dog was meant to do. You are in fact exactly the kind of home we look for based on what I am reading, and many puppies that could easily be titled in the show ring go to homes like yours because we know the dog will live and work as it was intended. Nevertheless everyone is susceptible to kennel blindness, and we owe it to our dogs to get as many objective opinions as possible. the show ring, and the various working arenas are what give us the trained expert (hopefully objective) opinions of those who went before us in the breed. It also proves our commitment to the breed to those who will end up with our pups. It is hopefully reasurring to someone looking for a puppy to know there puppy is out of a bitch who was bred for lognevity, has working and show titles, is not VwB affected, has hips certified excellant, doesn't have cardio in her pedigree for as many generations as possible... and so on. It's also important that it's not a one off fluke from a lucky outcross. you want to see generations of similiar (yet gradually improving) dogs in the pedigree. If you don't have this level of commitment to the breed you have no excuse for breeding. Breeding to the standard means ALL of the standard not just the parts that specifically refer to physical structure. " With GSD for example in geramny you cant register a litter of pups if the the dont come from a parent with a Schutzhund title." You also can't register a litter of more than 10 puppies unless you prove that you have you culled the litter down to 10 or found a surrogate mother for the remaining puppies... not all of what they do in Europe is good. You'll find Dexter all through our breeding (A German Dobe who was imported a while back). He was a fantastic dog, that could never have finished in the show ring because his head was lacking... but by carefully incorporating him into the current Doberman population we were able to add the best he had to offer (great strucutre, bone, and drive) and maintian the things that were already great about our dogs. Animal husbandry is as much art as science. As I mentioned before, the dog we built our foundation on had sired more Show Champions AND more working titled Dobes than any liveing Dobe (unfortunately he passed away a little short of 12). It is absolutly possible to breed dogs that can do it all.
5/15/07 5:04 PM
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SOLDAT
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Edited: 15-May-07
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smac1 it sounds like you have awesome dogs and a good breeding program going. I wish you best of luck with it and wish everbody breeding dogs was meeting the standards you have. Dobes are beautiful amazing animals. Any pics of your dogs by chance?
5/15/07 5:18 PM
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smac1
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Edited: 15-May-07
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5/15/07 5:20 PM
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smac1
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Edited: 15-May-07 05:26 PM
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The bitch on the left in the last picture is my favorite.  You can really see that she has the proper structure and drive to do her job.

 

We call her Ch. Sin City's Dark Angel POA "Jessica"
5/15/07 5:53 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 15-May-07
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"Two dogs fighting = forced to fight by idiot humans." Maybe if this 'forced' part was explained a little better I could be swayed by the argument. Put two dogs in the pit and they fight.Or they sniff each others butts and don't fight. Please help those of us not so familiar with animal psychology understand your position that the dogs are forced to fight. I've seen plenty of dogs fight on their own. How are they forced to fight another dog yet not attack their handler.
5/15/07 5:59 PM
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smac1
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Edited: 15-May-07
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"Put two dogs in the pit and they fight.Or they sniff each others butts and don't fight. Please help those of us not so familiar with animal psychology understand your position that the dogs are forced to fight." google fight-or-flight response. knowing that in a pit with no way out and another dog growling at you flight is not an option.
5/15/07 6:04 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 15-May-07
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So, you're saying the dogs always fight?
5/15/07 6:08 PM
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Brandon Garner
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 05/11/2004
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Stlnl2-Who are you? Brock-yes, I am.
5/15/07 7:04 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 15-May-07 08:05 PM
Member Since: 09/09/2006
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I get it. Full contact fighting is barbaric. It serves only to excite peoples violent sick emotions and serves no useful purpose in society.
5/15/07 8:19 PM
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spontonio
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Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 07/30/2006
Posts: 27
i dont like dog fighting. good planes going to waste.... oh, what are we talking about?
5/15/07 11:04 PM
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stlnl2
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Edited: 15-May-07
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"From: Brandon Garner Date: 05/15/07 06:11 PM Member Since: 05/11/2004 19 Total Posts Ignore User Stlnl2-Who are you?" Neal Weaver
5/15/07 11:08 PM
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SOLDAT
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Edited: 15-May-07
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Those are all beautiful pictures. Looks like the one has the weave poles down, those things are tough. Where do I apply to purchase the last 3? I promise to give them a very good home with lots of physical activity. "Remember, what may be right for you may not be right for some, because it takes different strokes to move the world." Yes some cultures view things differently but IMO there are some absolutes. Some people and cultures feel that genocide is okay but I am pretty sure that it really isn't and that their culture is in fact wrong. The same thing is true for other issues as well.
5/16/07 1:44 PM
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shootfightermike
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Edited: 16-May-07
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ttt
5/16/07 1:53 PM
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shootfightermike
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Edited: 16-May-07
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i actually started this thread because of what sam sheridan wrote in his book.
5/16/07 4:30 PM
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BigBopper
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Edited: 16-May-07
Member Since: 05/27/2006
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Dog fighting would be okay if the dog that loses is butchered and eaten. That way, the dog fight would be for more than just "entertainment"; it would be providing food for the hungry. Has anyone here tasted dog meat? I bet it's good when they're young, like lamb. Mmmm, puppy chops. Don't forget, eating dog is common in some Asian cultures. One billion Chinese can't be wrong!
5/16/07 4:33 PM
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stlnl2
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Edited: 16-May-07
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"One billion Chinese can't be wrong" Hey, your right, Communism, lack of human rights and having the police go around and club to death people's pets that are not licensed has GOT to be the answer. By the way I think its the Korean culture that's big on eating dogs, but since some people like eating shit too what do I care what Koreans think is right?
5/16/07 4:36 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 16-May-07
Member Since: 09/09/2006
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"People on here who keep comparing dogfighting to MMA really should be castrated so they can't breed anymore." ^^LOL @ this "Just because some dogs "want" to fight doesn't mean that letting them fight for human entertainment is a good thing" It doesn't mean it's a bad thing either.

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