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What if ... >> honest opinion on dogfighting?


5/16/07 5:43 PM
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BigBopper
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Edited: 16-May-07
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"It is fucking cruel and of no benefit at all." What if we eat the dogs that get killed?
5/16/07 5:54 PM
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BigBopper
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Edited: 16-May-07 06:07 PM
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"By the way I think its the Korean culture that's big on eating dogs, but since some people like eating shit too what do I care what Koreans think is right?" Some dogs eat shit, too. Kill them!
5/16/07 5:58 PM
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stlnl2
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Edited: 16-May-07
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"Some dogs eat shit, too. Kill them!" Why? People, dogs, frogs, I dont care who eats the poo, but just because they do doesnt make it a good idea. Stick to the context, unless you are afraid a shit eating dog will want a chunk of you.
5/16/07 6:08 PM
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BigBopper
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Edited: 16-May-07
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"Why? People, dogs, frogs, I dont care who eats the poo, but just because they do doesnt make it a good idea." How do we know that you're right and the Koreans are wrong? Pigs are smarter than dogs, and we still eat pigs.
5/16/07 6:09 PM
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Macedawgg
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Edited: 16-May-07
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Bopper--

But we don't set the pigs up in a fight, where substantial injury occurs, just for the hell of it ahead of time. 

That alone is an emormous distinction, so simple to recognize, and shame on those who pretend not to see it.

5/16/07 6:18 PM
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BigBopper
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Edited: 16-May-07
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"But we don't set the pigs up in a fight, where substantial injury occurs, just for the hell of it ahead of time." We do horrible, horrible things to pigs prior to eating them. Far worse than making them fight. ----- Approximately 100 million pigs are raised and slaughtered in the U.S. every year. As babies, they are subjected to painful mutilations without anesthesia or pain relievers. Their tails are cut off to minimize tail biting, an aberrant behavior that occurs when these highly-intelligent animals are kept in deprived factory farm environments. In addition, notches are taken out of the piglets' ears for identification. By two to three weeks of age, 15% of the piglets will have died. Those who survive are taken away from their mothers and crowded into pens with metal bars and concrete floors. A headline from National Hog Farmer magazine advises, "Crowding Pigs Pays...", and this is exemplified by the intense overcrowding in every stage of hog confinement systems. Pigs will live this way, packed into giant, warehouse-like sheds, until they reach a slaughter weight of 250 pounds at 6 months old. The air in hog factories is laden with dust, dander, and noxious gases, which are produced as the animals' urine and feces builds up inside the sheds. Studies of workers in swine confinement buildings have found sixty percent to have breathing problems, despite their spending only a few hours a day inside confinement buildings. For pigs, who spend their entire lives in factory farm confinement, respiratory disease is rampant. Modern hog factories are fertile breeding grounds for a wide variety of diseases. A pork industry report explains: Porcine Reproductive and Respiratory Syndrome, or PRRS, was first reported in U.S. herds in 1987. It is now estimated to be in as many as 60 percent of U.S. herds...Swine arthritis has increased in economic importance with confinement rearing, partly because of damage related to flooring conditions and partly because of faster growth rates and lack of exercise...The incidence of salmonellosis has continued to increase. It is estimated that one-third to half of farms have some level of salmonellosis...Epidemic transmissible gastroenteritis, or TGE, is a dreaded disease because it's hard to keep out of herds, there's no effective treatment and it carries a devastating mortality rate in baby pigs. Nearly all pigs less than 10 days old die if infected...Forty to 70 percent of U.S. pigs show evidence of infection with bratislava (a type of Leptospirosis)...Tests indicate 80 percent to 85 percent of sows in major swine producing areas have been exposed to parvovirus. Modern breeding sows are treated like piglet-making machines. Living a continuous cycle of impregnation and birth, each sow has more than 20 piglets per year. After being impregnated, the sows are confined in gestation crates -- small metal pens just two feet wide that prevent sows from turning around or even lying down comfortably. At the end of their four-month pregnancies, they are transferred to similarly cramped farrowing crates to give birth. With barely enough room to stand up and lie down and no straw or other type of bedding to speak of, many suffer from sores on their shoulders and knees. When asked about this, one pork industry representative wrote, "...straw is very expensive and there certainly would not be a supply of straw in the country to supply all the farrowing pens in the U.S." Numerous research studies conducted over the last 25 years have pointed to physical and psychological maladies experienced by sows in confinement. The unnatural flooring and lack of exercise causes obesity and crippling leg disorders, while the deprived environment produces neurotic coping behaviors such as repetitive bar biting and sham chewing (chewing nothing). After the sows give birth and nurse their young for two to three weeks, the piglets are taken away to be fattened, and the sows are re-impregnated. An article in Successful Farming explains, "Any sow that is not gestating, lactating or within seven days post weaning is non-active," and hog factories strive to keep their sows '100 % active' in order to maximize profits. When the sow is no longer deemed a productive breeder, she is sent to slaughter. The overcrowding and confinement is unnatural and stress-producing since pigs are actually very clean animals. If they are given sufficient space, pigs are careful not to soil the areas where they sleep or eat. But in factory farms, they are forced to live in their own feces, urine, vomit and even amid the corpses of other pigs. In addition to overcrowded housing, sows and pigs also endure extreme crowding in transportation, resulting in rampant suffering and deaths. As one hog industry expert writes: Death losses during transport are too high ? amounting to more than $8 million per year. But it doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out why we load as many hogs on a truck as we do. It's cheaper. So it becomes a moral issue. Is it right to overload a truck and save $.25 per head in the process, while the overcrowding contributes to the deaths of 80,000 hogs each year? Prior to being hung upside down by their back legs and bled to death at the slaughterhouse, pigs are supposed to be 'stunned' and rendered unconscious, in accordance with the federal Humane Slaughter Act. However, stunning at slaughterhouses is terribly imprecise, and often conscious animals are hung upside down, kicking and struggling, while a slaughterhouse worker tries to 'stick' them in the neck with a knife. If the worker is unsuccessful, the pig will be carried to the next station on the slaughterhouse assembly line -- the scalding tank --where he/she will be boiled, alive and fully conscious.
5/16/07 6:22 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 16-May-07
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^^Perspective.
5/16/07 6:23 PM
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stlnl2
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Edited: 16-May-07
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"How do we know that you're right and the Koreans are wrong? Pigs are smarter than dogs, and we still eat pigs." Kim Jong? Koreans also like watching Horses fight to the death. Pigs smarter than dogs? All pigs are smarter than all dogs? any proof by chance or just talking shit again? In any event dogs show loyalty, love and affection to people, dont tend to wallow in their own shit, and are not livestock animals. One is a pet and one is livestock. By your logic though you could be right from this day forth I will respect all cultures, starting with communist China, Krazy Korea, and of course Islamic Fundamentalists, because if a bunch of people think it, it must be a-ok.
5/16/07 6:26 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 16-May-07
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"In any event dogs show loyalty, love and affection to people, dont tend to wallow in their own shit, and are not livestock animals. One is a pet and one is livestock. " Really? Dogs wallow in their own shit when kept like pigs. Pigs show loyalty, love and affection when you don't treat them like livestock.
5/16/07 6:27 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 16-May-07 06:30 PM
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You just suffer from Bambi Syndrome.
5/16/07 6:30 PM
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stlnl2
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Edited: 16-May-07
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"From: MrFixit Date: 05/16/07 06:30 PM Member Since: 09/09/2006 3690 Total Posts Ignore User Last edited:16-May-07 06:30 PM You just suffer from Bambi Syndrome." No, pigs wallow in shit and mud of their own accord. Pot bellied pigs (the little ones) are much cleaner, but the nice porkers will seek out their own stink with mud to wallow in. Have you ever even been on a farm? Dogs shit at the end of the pen they dont lie in, except under the absolute most terrible conditions. Are you stupid?
5/16/07 6:33 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 16-May-07
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"Have you ever even been on a farm? " Yes, I grew up on a farm. You obviously know nothing about pigs or farming. So, you are saying wild pigs seek out their own filth to wallow in?
5/16/07 6:35 PM
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stlnl2
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Edited: 16-May-07 06:41 PM
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"So, you are saying wild pigs seek out their own filth to wallow in?" I dont if domestic turned wild one do, but the boars and warthogs on the nature shows wallow in mud, mud that they shit in and piss in while doing so, I would hazard that a pig is different. So you are saying your pigs on your farm did NOT wallow in filth? EDITED for add on: I ask about the filth because My Uncle's pigs had a big pen, But all of them hung out at the corner that was muddy and caked with shit. Maybe his pigs were the only doody wallowers?
5/16/07 6:42 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 16-May-07
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They wallow in filth because they they don't get their cages/pens cleaned except for the rain. They're smart enough to know it doesn't hurt them and it doesn't bother them so why should they care. So they wallow in their own shit? It doesn't hurt them and they're as in demand as ever. You probably eat them yourself. Why not eat dogs? THey're cleaner.
5/16/07 6:43 PM
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smileythai
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Edited: 16-May-07 06:46 PM
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The Milkman summed it up nicely with his post on the first page. I will only add that 'gameness' IS directly applicable to all manner of work not associated with dogfighting. Gameness itself, is defined as the willingness to continue no matter the odds or outcome. This, essentially, means that a 'game' dog will not quit...ever. This degree of mental strengh in the dog is a prequisite for work such as personal protection, disaster search-and-rescue, and bomb/cadaver/drug detection. Dogs performing these types of work MUST display their willingness and ability to do their jobs regardless of the difficulties/distractions/dangers they may face. A personal protection dog must display the heart and physical gifts to effectively defend its handler against man or beast without regard to it's own saftey and/or survival. Similarly, the dog trained for SAR and detection work must be able to negotiate unstable obstacles, be they natural or man-made, and be able to tolerate harsh weather conditions(extreme heat/cold) while searching for lost lives or contraband.
5/16/07 6:49 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 16-May-07
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"I ask about the filth because My Uncle's pigs had a big pen, But all of them hung out at the corner that was muddy and caked with shit. Maybe his pigs were the only doody wallowers?" They hang out at the mud pit because that's how they regulate their body temperature. If a dog couldn't pant, nature would have them digging a hole, pissing in it, and wallowing around in the mud to cool down.
5/16/07 7:02 PM
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sunndogg
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Edited: 16-May-07
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bywaterflotsam spotted, stalked, and harvested the truth witha one shot kill to the vitals..I've hunted all my life and I could not have explained it more directly..and I haven't met many non hunters who appreciate the correlation between animal suffering and what you buy at the store. People feel soo much better about themselves by having someone else raise, butcher and deliver there meat in clean white sanitized paper. Then critisize me for wanted to chase down my own 100% organic super low fat lean meat on a one on one playing field. Fuckin hypocrits...sorry, I got carried away.. "Comparing hunting to fighting dogs, at least on the surface, is mostly a question of cruelty toward animals. Is taking a life more cruel than intentionally causing an animal to suffer and cause suffering, long term? " "I could not hunt a deer down, personally, but if a friend did, and offered me some of his "kill," I'd feel far better about eating that than a burger from McDonald's."
5/16/07 8:30 PM
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pulsar
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Edited: 16-May-07
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Pigs are clean living if given the opportunity.
5/17/07 6:48 PM
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Rickson's Armbar
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Edited: 17-May-07
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Pigs roll in shit to cool themselves they don't sweat the way that we do, also they are prone to sunburn and cover themselves in mud/shit as a make shift sunscreen. They are very intelligent creatures and are usually forced to live a existence far worse than any game dog.
5/17/07 8:17 PM
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MrFixit
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Edited: 17-May-07
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TTT for mistreated pigs
5/17/07 8:55 PM
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smileythai
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Edited: 17-May-07
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HP, I didn't say that gameness/gamedogs were 'proven' by anything other than the box. I was merely referring to the fact that gamedogs can, and do, excel at other types of work BECAUSE of the traits inherent to the box. You're right. Nothing else compares to the environment of the pit box. No other activity can stress the dog to the same degree of fatigue, frustration, and pain. It doesn't matter though, because dogs from 'proven' lines are already at such an advantaged position, in terms of physical and mental traits, that the chances of finding a dog capable of exceling at the Work are much higher/likely than taking on a dog from cur lines/breeds. Here's are two 'fastlane' bulldogs doing bitework and detection training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOfPXgw7Jns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t85KhmcoSM0 I know you that you do not support the breed being used for these types of work, so we'll just have to agree to disagree like always. However, considering my definition of gameness is watered down, I would like to hear yours.
5/17/07 9:07 PM
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naqis
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Edited: 17-May-07
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There is no value, honor, or beauty in it what so ever. It's humans exploiting animals for their own material gain, nothing more. Abject cruelty.
5/18/07 8:59 AM
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CJJScout
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Edited: 18-May-07
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I'm kinda down with it after reading Sam Sheridan's account in "A Fighter's Heart". Before that I wouldn't have liked it at all, but now... I don't know, it's easy for me to sit here and say that but if I really saw it it might be another story. I believe we were given dominion over the animal kingdom but with that comes responsibility. Not sure if this fits in as a responsible act or not. Probably not. I guess all that goes to say I really don't have a solid opinion on it, but I'm not going to hate someone that does do it.
5/18/07 9:11 AM
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DarthMolen
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Edited: 18-May-07
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I don't even want to read this whole thread. I agree with the poster about "Sadism for sadism sakes is a human trait". If you have ever seen the instruments of the dog fighting industry and the refuse they leave behind, you wouldn't even be talking about this in a glorious fashion. The puppies these sick men use as chew toys to whip their fighting dogs into a blood frenzy. The repeated injuries that these dogs suffer and are forced to suffer until they can no longer "perform" and then are either thrown away as refuse or shot in their place is despicable. There is no honor in organized dog fighting period. End of story. DarthMolen http://mma.komikazee.com
5/18/07 9:34 AM
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stlnl2
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Edited: 18-May-07
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"The puppies these sick men use as chew toys to whip their fighting dogs into a blood frenzy. The repeated injuries that these dogs suffer and are forced to suffer until they can no longer "perform" and then are either thrown away as refuse or shot in their place is despicable." I hate to side with dog fighting, and if you see what I have said so far, you will realize I dont. BUT, the traditional dog fighters who know their business, DO NOT USE BAIT ANIMALS. That is strictly a white/ghetto trash element of people. A game dog doesnt need ANY working up to a frenzy. A truly game dog is going to do his business and will never have needed to have been forced/directed to attack any sort of bait animals. A real, proper trained fighting dog is also almost always people friendly, neutreal at worst. They have to be to get separated properly during a fight and because no one would let his dog fight another dog that he has not inspected himself first. The Full time drug dealers/part time dog fighters are the people who use bait animals, let a dog double as "security", and who are the sort that generally make a mess of things. Like I said before I dont care for the Dogmen and what they do, but they do alot of things to make sure their animals are well cared for, from fitness, to being social with people on some level, to not letting them get killed in a fight (as they are a commodity for breeding). The other sort are just interested in seeing dogs fight and think you have to make a pit bull "mean" to get it to fight. Pit bulls are/were a prized breed not simply because they fight well, its their natures to do their absolute best to please their owner/master. Unfortunately with a minimum of training knowledge/ability even a fairly ignorant trailer/gheto trash clown can get a pitbull ready to fight (its not like they have to be beaten to it, some of them come out of the womb ready to stand their ground).

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