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NatureGround >> TOP 10 TOUGHEST LAND ANIMALS


5/23/07 8:47 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07
Member Since: 12/03/2003
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To counter the claims of no fights to the death between lion and tiger here is one solid case.

Newspaper article from the Gettysburg Compiler in 1899


headline reads:

LION AGAINST TIGER

An extraordinary combat in which the King of beasts (lion) was vanquished. A battle to the death.



www.willamette.edu/~ehodder/lion-tiger_0001.jpg
5/23/07 8:48 PM
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HELWIG
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Edited: 23-May-07
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"Ok I have no evidence of a TIger killing a Lion, but I do have a lot of evidence of Tigers punking tigers, which does show that they are more dominant." Ok fair enough. My opinion has consistently been that if you put two prime examples of each in an enclosure and forced them to fight to the death the lion would win more than the tiger. But I understand where youre coming from. "Sry man. Leopards get killed by single warthogs and baboons regularly. A baby giraffe has no experience with self-defense. Comparing the self-defense of a baby giraffe with a full grown battle-tested silverback is silly." Broseph you didnt watch the vid. At the end the commentator says that a leopard killed an adult male gorilla. I certainly wouldnt just make that up based on the baby giraffe info. BTW EY: When I first got into these debates a few years ago I scoured the net for stuff about lion tiger. There are several notations out there about tigers being fearful and nervous around lions as well as being unable to do lethal damage due to their manes. The tiger can only really beat it up with claws which the lion also has. The tiger is helpless against the lion's bite however. Also of note is that the romans claim it takes 3 lion to beat one brown bear and that the rhino beats everything else no matter how many their are. The animals dont coindinate to bring it down and it crushes them all to death.
5/23/07 8:58 PM
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demonsloth
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Edited: 23-May-07
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"Broseph you didnt watch the vid. At the end the commentator says that a leopard killed an adult male gorilla. I certainly wouldnt just make that up based on the baby giraffe info." The only explanation is that the gorilla must have raped the leopard's mom.
5/23/07 9:03 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07
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"Ok fair enough. My opinion has consistently been that if you put two prime examples of each in an enclosure and forced them to fight to the death the lion would win more than the tiger. But I understand where youre coming from. " Actually if you look at the post above your last post, I cite a newspaper article that reports about a caged fight between a lion and a tiger. Tiger kills the Lion.
5/23/07 9:09 PM
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Jwizard
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Edited: 23-May-07
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What world do you live in where a tiger weighs 500 pounds more than a lion?
5/23/07 9:09 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07 09:14 PM
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"BTW EY: When I first got into these debates a few years ago I scoured the net for stuff about lion tiger. There are several notations out there about tigers being fearful and nervous around lions as well as being unable to do lethal damage due to their manes. The tiger can only really beat it up with claws which the lion also has. The tiger is helpless against the lion's bite however." I have not read that. The mane can only offer so much protection. From roman times, they have reported the Lion being helpless against the Tiger. Also I have posted evidence of Tigers killing many diff beasts alone. Beasts that even full lion packs have a hard time taking down. Lion prides have trouble taking down a single buffalo, a lone male lion got punked by a cattle bull. On the other hand, Tigers take down 3000 lb. indian bison. Lion prides don't even mess with rhinos, a lone Tiger killed a rhino before this is documented. the male lion rarely hunts and it usually resorts to fighting with other male lions, and usually not to the death. Tigers kill alone to eat. This makes them more game. I don't think the debate should be about Lion vs. Tiger because there is no doubt that the Tiger is the better fighter. It is more athletic than the Lion. It can climb and swim, it is faster and more agile and it is most importantly bigger by nearly 2x. i would rather argue Siberian/Bengal Tiger vs. grizzly/polar Bear. This is the most significant matchup for me for the #1 spot.
5/23/07 9:10 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07 09:22 PM
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"What world do you live in where a tiger weighs 500 pounds more than a lion?" Ummm siberian tiger. Up to 900 lbs. generally they are 600-800 lbs. Some have been recorded up to 1000 lbs. in the winter. Generally the lion is anywhere from 300-400 lbs. Largest male Lion is 450-500 lbs. So this is where I get my 500 lbs. more.
5/23/07 9:19 PM
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Jwizard
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Edited: 23-May-07
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The largest documented wild Siberian Tiger was 845 pounds. The average Siberian Tiger is 5-600 pounds. The average male lion is 450-500 pounds. I'm sure the largest documented lion in the wild was over 600. So, going by your reasoning, I might as well claim that a lion has 100 pounds on the Siberian tiger, since I will use the most extreme in both directions. Your posts are full of this and your videos are typically showing tigers and smaller examples of the species in question. LOL at that crocodile video, all of those crocs were fucking tiny. Let's see a tiger own a Nile croc IN THE WATER, lol. I wish there was a way for us to pit these animals together in a fair match. I would bet you anything you wanted on my top 10 beating a bengal tiger. I would be extremely confident
5/23/07 9:23 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07 09:27 PM
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Yeah the largest documented tiger on wikipedia is 845 lbs. It is widely reported all over the net that the Siberian tiger can reach up to 1000 lbs. and the average is 700 lbs. not 500-600. And you are wrong about the average male lion being 450-500. Those are the largest. The avg. male lion is 350-400 lbs.
5/23/07 9:25 PM
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Jwizard
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Edited: 23-May-07
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You're right. Encarta goes 50 further and says 550 (lion)
5/23/07 9:36 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07 09:43 PM
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"I wish there was a way for us to pit these animals together in a fair match. I would bet you anything you wanted on my top 10 beating a bengal tiger. I would be extremely confident" I am confident that the finest example of a bengal tiger could beat every single animal on your list besides MAYBE the Polar/grizzly/kodiak bear. These bears are about 1000-1500 lbs. Tigers can kill 3000 lb. Indian Bison alone. I would give tigers a good chance due to sharper claws, more agility and ferocity. However, bears have thicker skin and can withstand a tiger's bite better. Also in documented cases in Eastern Europe, the brown bear and the tiger are very competitive with each having wins over the other.
5/23/07 9:42 PM
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Jwizard
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Edited: 23-May-07
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Let me get this straight. You think the finest bengal tiger beats an African Elephant (healthy adult, unlike some of the examples you have given of other animals)? If you say yes to this question, then you are a failure of a human being. I will even help you cheat on your answer. HINT: The tiger is outweighed by 10,000+ pounds
5/23/07 9:47 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07
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1. Elephant (documented case of 2 tigers killing one full grown adult elephant, Young elephants are regular prey of Tigers, Adult Elephants can do nothing to save their calfs, Tiger wins) 2. Hippopotamus (tiger wins by default, hippo runs away) 3. Rhinoceros (Documented case of Tiger killing an adult Rhino. Young rhinos regularly killed by Tigers, Tiger wins) 4. Brown Bear (documented cases of tigers killing large brown bears, however they usually avoid each other) 5. Polar Bear (similar to brown bear) 6. Moose (Tiger wins, similar to Indian Bison) 7. Water Buffalo (tigers kill water buffalo regularly, this is documented, even female tigers can take these no problem) 8. Bull (Cattle) (tigers kill 3000 lb. Indian bison regularly, tiger wins easily) 9. Giraffe ( Kicking is not enough to defeat a Tiger, Tiger wins by leap and fatal bite to the neck)
5/23/07 9:52 PM
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Pratty
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Edited: 23-May-07
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documented case of 2 tigers killing one full grown adult elephant, Young elephants are regular prey of Tigers, Adult Elephants can do nothing to save their calfs, Tiger wins maybe against a female Indian elephant... nothing can match an african bull elephant
5/23/07 9:52 PM
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Jwizard
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Edited: 23-May-07
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They can do nothing to save their calfs, eh? You're ridiculous.
5/23/07 9:54 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07
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"Let me get this straight. You think the finest bengal tiger beats an African Elephant (healthy adult, unlike some of the examples you have given of other animals)? If you say yes to this question, then you are a failure of a human being. I will even help you cheat on your answer. HINT: The tiger is outweighed by 10,000+ pounds " What's the point if the Elephant refuses to fight? I have seen healthy african elephants being destroyed by a pack of lions. Most importantly, It was also mostly one lion that jumped onto the back of the Elephant that did all of the damage. So if one game tiger jumps on the back of the elephant it's game over for the elephant no matter how big. Also I have cited 2 tigers killing an adult Indian Elephant. Tigers regularly kill young elephants alone while the adult elephants can do noting to stop the Tiger. Just because it weights so much more doesn't mean it can beat the tiger. it is a docile, slow creature. Tigers can kill a full grown rhino, so the capability is there to puncture the thick skin of an elephant. It is just a matter how the Tiger can use it's cunning to attack the elephant effectively without getting punctured by elephant tusks. They don't call the Tiger the ultimate predator for nothing, it is the true king of beasts.
5/23/07 10:44 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07
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More evidence of Tiger destroying lion, from none other than Charles Darwin himself: "In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: 'the lions mane saved his head and neck from being much injured, but the tiger at last succeeded in ripping up his belly, and in a few minutes he was dead. -The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Charles Darwin.
5/23/07 10:51 PM
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Anek
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Edited: 23-May-07 11:01 PM
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Evilyoshida, what is your source for the tiger killing a rhino? This is a very important topic and needs to be conducted professionally, IMO. Also, the pack of lions that killed the elephant took on a juvenile at night.
5/23/07 10:52 PM
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HELWIG
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Edited: 23-May-07
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A tiger locked in an enclosure with a brown bear, hippo, rhino, or elephant is going to be dead as close to 100% of the time as you can reasonably assume.
5/23/07 10:56 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07
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" Evilyoshida, what are your sources for a tiger killing a rhino? This is a very important topic and needs to be conducted professionally, IMO." This is from ecology.info, an online journal "Adult elephants and rhinoceroses are so large that the tiger, leopard and dhole usually do not attack them. However, some exceptions occur. The World Wildlife Fund in Nepal is currently taking care of an orphaned Indian Rhinoceros (Rhinoceros unicornis) whose mother was killed by a tiger."
5/23/07 11:00 PM
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Anek
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Edited: 23-May-07
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http://en.allexperts.com/q/Interspecies-Conflict-3754/elephant-Vs-tiger-lion.htm "Hi, Rohit! Thank you for your question. Elephants are very powerful animals, and their size alone is often more than enough to scare away predators. However, tigers and lions have been known to attack them. Attacks of lions on adult African elephants were recently reported from Chobe National Parks. It seems that, during dry season when normal prey was scarce, lions started killing young elephants and ended up killing and eating the adults too. They usually focus on subadults, however, and attacks on full grown, healthy bull elephants have not been reported. (Male elephants are extremely dangerous and have been known to kill lions, sometimes without provocation). Old, sick or weakened males, however, can become prey too. Being so big, elephants are rarely killed instantly and it is common for the lions to start devouring their prey while its still alive. They usually attack the elephant by jumping on its back and neck and biting, until the elephant colapses and falls to the ground. Attacks of lions on adult elephants in other places are much rarer, and in most of their habitat, lions will rather avoid adult elephants. About tiger attacks on elephants there is not so much information; tigers are lone hunters, which means that it would be more difficult for them to bring down an elephant. However, many tigers have attacked domesticated elephants (those used to carry tourists in national parks), and some wild elephants have scars that suggest attacks by tigers. Asian elephants have also been reported to get very nervous when they smell a tiger's scent. It seems then that tigers are not really afraid of elephants, and do attack them, but they usually avoid the adults and do not consider them to be prey. Young elephants, however, are often the target of predatory attacks by tigers, even tough these attacks can be as dangerous for the cat as they are for the elephant calf. The truth is that the age of elephant-hunting cats ended thousands of years ago with the extinction of sabertooths. I hope this was useful. Best regards Dewey"
5/23/07 11:01 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07
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"Also, the pack of lions that killed the elephant took on a juvenile at night." I'm not takling about that video. I'm talking about another one where a 7 lions attack one adult elephant. The elephant was injured but it got away, but it shows the strategy of beating a huge elephant, which is to jump on its back and then bite the back of the neck. Since Tigers usually fight by employing various angles, and coupled with its elite leaping ability (second in the world only to the puma), I believe a lone tiger can jump on manage to jump on a slow lumbering elephant's back. It you watch the vid of the tiger attacking the man on the elephant, the tiger easily clears the height of the elephant to attack the human directly. I imagine this is the way the 2 tigers defeated the Indian elephant.
5/23/07 11:03 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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Edited: 23-May-07
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" A tiger locked in an enclosure with a brown bear, hippo, rhino, or elephant is going to be dead as close to 100% of the time as you can reasonably assume." well besides the brown bear I agree with you. But we're not talking about 1 on 1 in a cage, we are talking about 1 and 1 in the wild. The tiger's greatest weapon is its agility and the use of angles to attack its prey.
5/23/07 11:11 PM
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mike willus
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Edited: 23-May-07
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In the WILD, not in an enclosure, i may have to agree with EVILYOSHIDA. My logic is as follows: A human being is capable of killing every single thing on this planet without a gun/bomb/etc. We humans were kicking ass and taking names with just spears. Humans with a spear kills almost anything...infact, human with a harpoon (read: water spear) can kill a blue whale! Why? The answer is intellegence and the unexpected nature of the attack. Maybe this is also what the tiget brings to the table.
5/23/07 11:14 PM
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Anek
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Edited: 23-May-07
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There is a website that goes in depth about the lion vs tiger questions: www.lairweb.org.nz: "There are two films recording early lion and tiger fights, one in captivity and the other in the wild. *The first documents an event set up to entertain a prince. The fight took place in the pit of a palace compound with the entire encounter being recorded. The film showed that the tiger was at an immediate disadvantage. Tigers use a throat grip as their primary means of killing and the lion's thick protective mane prevented the tiger gaining a hold on the throat joint. On the other hand, the tiger had no special protection, so was vulnerable to attack. In this fight, the tiger was killed. *The second piece of film dates back to the 1930s and is still under investigation by this site. The documentary owner has yet to view more than a few portions of it and until the film can be converted to a more easily viewed format little more progress can be made on reviewing this piece. As far as can be ascertained, the film was taken during an expedition to capture some tigers in the Gir region of India. Again, the tiger was the loser. These films back up current expert opinion, including some from Leeds University, regarding the potential result of conflict between these two animals. It is considered that exactly the same outcome would occur given a modern battle between the lion and the tiger." "Despite the final appearance given by the movie, tigers were largely unsuccessful in the gladiatorial area. Lions were more popular as they put on an excellent fight display, whereas tigers were surprisingly reluctant to enter into battle. Placed in with lions, the tigers would often simply retreat." "Expert opinion is that the modern male lion has no equal in the cat world when it comes to his fighting ability. Lions evolved as fighters. Among the pride, their primary job is to protect their females from marauding males who would assume control of the pride and kill any cubs. As a result, the male lion spends the great majority of his time in combat situations. Nature has supported the lion in this, with the evolution of a thick heavy mane for added protection and to intimidate. " "Seated next to a tiger, the lion is composed. The tiger, on the other hand, is usually nervous and apprehensive. The tiger does not seem to have the lion's capacity for calm analysis and appraisal. This puts him at a disadvantage in a fight with a lion." Beatty recalled his experience with a lion named "Sultan the First" who once took on every tiger in his act and defeated them one after another. "It was an amazing performance since my entire entourage consisted of big, young powerful animals. So these were not pushovers that Sultan defeated. This remarkable lion, feinting like a clever boxer and making his opponents miss, would then send the off-balance enemy sprawling across the arena with a tremendous clout." " "Quite frequently the lion versus tiger question focuses on the Amur (Siberian) tiger. People mistakenly believe that the large size of the Amur tiger means a more aggressive animal and therefore a better fighter. The fact is, that when it comes to aggression, the Amur tiger lacks the ferocity of its cousin from the Asian sub-continent, which, in turn, lacks the ferocity of the lion by a significant margin. For most people it is easier to understand this by comparing dogs. I own Great Danes which weigh in at 60-70 kgs each, yet the significantly smaller and lighter Doberman down the road attacked and injured my Dane. The difference is one of ferocity. Also worth noting is that though the Amur tiger is slightly longer and somewhat heavier than the Bengal, the difference is less than popularly thought. Much of the Amur tiger's extra bulk is fat for warmth, and a false impression is also given by their thicker longer coat. The fights such as noted here are mostly historic ones. In the 1870s, the Purnea district of India (now north Bihar) was famed for its enormous tigers. Two shot during that period measured 11' 5" and 12' 4" respectively. To compare them accurately to modern Bengals it is necessary to subtract 7-8 inches as they were measured using a different system than is practiced today. Despite this they were massive animals, by any standard." "Conclusion: *The tiger has a longer body, and is usually more powerful in the back legs, having evolved this way for great speed and unmatched leaping power. The lion evolved primarily for fighting, with a larger head and more power in the forequarters. Paradoxically this has made him a poor predator. It seems obvious that there are a small number of tigers out there which are superior fighters to the lion, but across the majority of the animals, the lion would probably indeed be the King of the Beasts. The ultimate conclusion is up to the reader, and this article seeks not to give you a definite answer, only something to ponder on. Perhaps the final comment should come from animal trainer Louis Roth, who once said he had "seen enough fights to conclude that none of the theories is accurate; sometimes a lion would win, sometimes a tiger". "

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