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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Sambo Nationals


11/2/02 4:38 AM
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Koga
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
Member Since: 12-Mar-02
Posts: 393
No way I can top Pordish's last one about Todd competing against his student. - Koga!
11/2/02 10:19 AM
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WSF
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
Member Since: 18-Aug-02
Posts: 9
Hi Todd, Vince, Chris and some of my other students out there. Sorry I have to lower myself by taking part in this rediculous discussion but I think we need to open some eyes. Sambo is dying in this country and this is a good example of why. Here is an old article of the origins of sambo. It isn't the whole thing but it includes the important part... "In 1918, comrade V. I. Lenin created Vseobuch: the organization responsible for training the Red Army. Joseph Stalin, at the time a string aid to Lenin, personally ordered a high ranking political official, named comrade Voroshilov, to organize research into human combat. Voroshilov was a an inept monster, personally responsible for hundreds of military blunders. Although incompetent and inhumane, he accomplished one grand measure, accidentally. Not wishing to toil over such a "mediocre" endeavor, in 1923, he called together a group of specialists, later to be called "Dynamo", to do the research. Voroshilov assembled a retainer of combat-experienced individuals to carry out this endeavor: A. A. Kharlampiev, V. A. Spiridinov and V. S. Oschepkov. Each of these individuals were assigned the vocation of combatives investigators and sent to travel to various countries to study the endemic, native combatives in order to gleen from them utility, but more importantly, to understand how the neighbors of the USSR defend themselves. Anatoly Kharlampiev traveled west then south absorbing the Euro-Asian and Afro-Baltic combative systems. V.S. Oschepkov traveled to Japan. V. A. Spiridinov traveled to Mongolia, China, and India to study the Mongol-Vedic martial traditions. Although returning sporadically to deposit information and engage in political endeavors, the course of this investigation lasted approximately ten years. To Asian styles such as, JuJitsu, Karate, Judo, Kung-fu and Aikido, the men added their experience with the native, Russian hand-to-hand combat, known as "Russian Martial Art". This reservoir of information was to be controlled by the State. Here is the origin of what became a state-authorized falsification and distortion of technical data on Soviet combatives. Voroshilov was ordered to establish a secret, hierarchical structure to the information. At the highest and most remote level, a Close Quarters Combat system was to be devised for training by the elite forces of the former Soviet Union Special Forces and Secret Police. This Soviet Close Quarters Combat (CQC) training methods were tested for effectiveness in the Russo-Japanese War and World War I. The intent of close quarters combat was for silent killing by covert forces, personal combatives by elite forces, and torture methodologies by interrogative forces. Various combative tools were employed. Unarmed tactics such as debilitating strikes, dangerous captures, suffocation and strangulation methods, and Armed tactics such as spade, saber, bayonet, knife, baton, and pike usage were included in the curriculum. The goal of CQC is the total destruction of the enemy in the most expedient manner: a purely military doctrine. A second tier of the system was to be employed by the general Soviet Police. This form was to be the Soviet Police Subject and Crowd Control Tactics (CCT). The CCT were fashioned into a system of Balance Displacement measures, Pressure Point Control Tactics, Joint Manipulation, and striking tactics aimed at Motor Dysfunction and Pain Compliance, and mob control weaponry, such as impact weapons and chemical agents. Finally, at the basal level, the combatives information was to be intentionally diluted into a competitive form which would become the training regimen of the general military."
11/2/02 10:20 AM
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WSF
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
Member Since: 18-Aug-02
Posts: 10
Continuation of last post... Notice which techniques are actually part of sambo's origins; chokes and strikes are game. I suggest all of you traditional "samboists" start training them so your abilities catch up with the rest of the grappling arts. By the way, the author of this article was none other than your own, Scott Sonnon. P.S. I think we'll allow knives, pistols and bayonettes at nationals next year.
11/2/02 12:29 PM
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judo guy
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 523
Hi WSF, I think Quincy's original statement is fair. The tournament rules are not Sambo. You state in your first post that it is a "national grappling competition." Why not just call it the WSF National Grappling Open? Sports like judo, sambo, wrestling etc. have been around longer than all of us and the rule structures of these sports have been around for years. They are modified as time goes by, but the basic elements of the sport remain the same. Changes to the rules are usually made by some hierarchy that has been established to promote the development of the sport. Quincy is also correct when he says its great that you are hosting a competition. The more the better. I'm all for people having opportunities to compete under different rules and formats. Now, you might totally disagree with the direction that Sambo has taken over the course of its history. You might even be correct about it. But unfortunately, unless you have authority within the established Sambo community, you cannot change that. Why not just call your competition system "New Sport Sambo" or something to that effect? It would clearly delineate what you do, with what the mainstream samboists compete in. When Michael Swain tried to establish his own form of judo competition, he called it "New Sport Judo". Kinda makes sense. If you want to differentiate yourself from the establishment, use modifying terms to do that. More importantly, you eliminate confusion. JMHO.
11/2/02 12:46 PM
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Osaekomi
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Edited: 02-Nov-02 01:12 PM
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 903
WSF, I don't find the discussion ridiculous because they are legitimate concerns and assertions being posted. I also feel there have been excellent suggestions posted about renaming your event which is the primary point of contention herein. It is simple logic that an apple is not an orange even though you want to call the apple an orange. A = A, B = B, A is not B, A is A. I hope your event is huge and successful. Props to you for organizing it. My honest suggestion is to rename in a manner such as judo guy suggested, "New Sport Sambo" or perhaps "International Sport Cambo".
11/2/02 1:48 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
Member Since: 12-Jun-02
Posts: 567
outright... nobody in this thread has ever said that the Doc wasnt a good grappler, that he wasnt a capable fighter/teacher, etc... ...but... none of those things mean he isnt a fraud, or being very misleading to a neglegent degree (to say the least). taking an orange and calling it an apple and then selling it to the public is not an honest act and that is exactly what the Doc is doing. it isnt sambo, dont call it sambo. Hell, judo had punches in it way back in the day, but if you were to allow punches in a judo tournament you'd get in deep shit real fast. durh. call it what it is, a freakin grappling tournament and let that be that. I believe the only reason that Doc is calling it sambo is becuase he cant get insurance unless it is a recognized event under an already recognized sport. "so, hey, lets use sambo" is what cmae to his mind. its garbage. have your damn event. have the best people you can attend it. brag and boast about how wonderful they are, and continue to act like a general moron. just becuase the people who join your damn organization believe in you (poor, brainwahsed children of a misguided organization) doesnt mean we have to. you very well could be a total badass, but that matters not when being fraudulent/neglegent/liar (take your pick). on the other hand... you still havent shown us who your judo champions are (and i am beginning to doubt you have any, because i know your area and there arent any.. and gokor's kids arent yours). so, WHO ARE THEY? -resnick
11/2/02 2:26 PM
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Todd Milhoan
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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Posts: 237
Naming it "international sport Cambo" would still give me the impression that it's a real Sambo tournament... just keep it named as a generic grappling tournament, and leave it at that. Judo also has Atemi-waza in their past.. nobody is throwing punches and kicks in a judo tournament. The reason Sambo isn't popular isn't the rules.. it's because every cheeseball and his cousin feels the need to run out and start his own federation, appoint himself the 8th degree grand poohbah of Sambo, etc. and then run a "world championship" where you get to fight a guy from the Sambo hotbed of Rhode Island in the finals.
11/2/02 2:29 PM
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QUINCY RICE
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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"I suggest all of you traditional "samboists" start training them so your abilities catch up with the rest of the grappling arts." Dont come on and preach to us about submission because some of us have a hell of a lot more experience in it than you do...
11/2/02 2:54 PM
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QUINCY RICE
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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Well said todd.
11/2/02 3:09 PM
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bjjboxer
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Edited: 02-Nov-02 03:10 PM
Member Since: 14-Oct-02
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I think that this is a big joke. Some of you just don't know what you are talking about. I use to train with the Doc in St. Louis . Sambo is his main training. That is a big part of his school and organizaton. The Doc is putting on a tournament that everone should love. What he is doing is what this websight is all about (MMA). This is not 1980, we all know that cross-training is the way to go. Look at the WSF website. It may have sambo in the title but it is cross-training. The best from each style that is listed. He is a great trainer and instructer. You would have to look long and hard to find someone as skilled as him to learn from. After all just look at the new grappling mag. Looks like Dr. Pordash is in it again teaching leg locks.
11/2/02 3:20 PM
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bjjboxer
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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Dr. Pordash is trying to do something good for the sport of MMA and all some of you can do is try to give him S**t about it. I think that is funny. I think we have a big enough problem with what people think of our sport from the outside. Some people are just so uneducated. We need to come together as a sport and not try to nit-pick at each other. I think what Dr. Pordash is doing is great!!!!! Joe G. (St. Louis)
11/2/02 3:31 PM
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McLeod
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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I've been on here a long time and I've seen a hundred Trolls, or mcDojo owners come and go...and as such I can understand some of you insulting Doc and his tournament when it was first announced, but by this point I hope you understand what is happening. His skills are not even questionable, and those of you that do question them would do well to roll with him, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to do so. As for his organization, I've trained in BJJ as well and spent over 5 years in it before meeting Doc. His organization is the type of thing that only improves the sport, and the martial arts in general. He's a great guy who doesn't put himself "above" his students, which is common in MMA. And the level of his students, Vince and JW and the others can only attest to his abilities and the legitimacy of his WSF. His only intention has been to help the sport and grapplers as a whole. BTW: QUINCY RICE: I've seen you on here a long time, and I've actually agreed with alot of your views. I'm not asking this to start anything or to call into question your skills. I was simply wondering ( and had been before this thread) where you've trained, styles, years, experience, etc. And RESNICK, well I can honestly say that neither JW, Vince, nor myself are brainwashed, misguided nor moronic. But thanks for caring.
11/2/02 3:35 PM
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McLeod
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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Oh, and as for the tourny: Just compete for fun for God's sake. I am not a Judo guy... my Judo is not nearly as good as my wrestling for takedowns, and given the rules of Doc's tourny, I could very well lose like this: I get taken down to my guard...reverse him to mount, take his back, and work a choke for 4 minutes... then he could escape with 10 seconds left and end up in my guard (as I fall off his back) and I could lose 2-1. The rules don't favor my style of fighting. But rather than worry about it, I'm just gonna do the tourny for the experience, fun and competition of it. Learn from it and work on my gi takedowns. Then I'll go out with the guys afterwards and have a good time. It wouldn't be a horrible thing to join me. :)
11/2/02 3:38 PM
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QUINCY RICE
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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I dont need to qualify my oppinions, take them for what they are worth to you.Try clicking my profile though if you must know... Like I said before, it all comes down to calling something sambo nationals that isnt...period.
11/2/02 3:39 PM
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SIUMAC
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Edited: 02-Nov-02 03:43 PM
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
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Realistic Martial Arts Training Asn
Dr Pordash is one of my grappling instructors. He really knows his stuff and has taught me alot. I have trained with many of the best fighters and instructors in the martial arts world, and he is right up there with the best technically. I get alot out of training with him as I'm always looking for new, good fresh ideas and he's got plenty of them. It seems appropriate that people call him Doc since he's not only a chiropractic doc but also fixes people's submissions and techniques. I can understand some of the complaints about calling this tournament a sambo tournament when in purely sport sambo the rules are different. I talk with Doc often and there is no question that the rules of this tournament are modified from pure sport sambo, as well as sambo as a martial art. He does this so that grapplers from all styles will have an even chance at it, rather that those used to purely sport sambo rules. The fact is that even pure sport sambo is modified from sambo as a martial art in the aspect that weapons, strikes, etc are taken out so we can practice it more safely. It is my opinion that he calls this a sambo because sambo is his base style and any technique allowed in this tournament can be found in sambo as a martial art. I dont care as much what it's called... I realize that any technique allowed in this tournament can be found being taught in most sambo, judo, BJJ, & sub grappling schools around the world- but since it's a tournament being offered by the WSF (which has over 30 schools around the world now) I can understand the sambo title. Just my thoughts and opinions. I hope this discussion can continue on with more respect and less name calling from everyone. It's ok to disagree... but there's no need for immaturity- it just gets in the way of progress. Vincent Fields WWW.GO.TO/SIUMAC NO EGOS, ATTITUDES, OR POLITICS PS: If you go to my website you'll see a picture of (from left to right in the center of the group) Gene LeBell, me, Gokor Chivichyan, and Dr Pordash.
11/2/02 3:39 PM
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bjjboxer
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
Member Since: 14-Oct-02
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I could not agree more Mcleod. ttt
11/2/02 3:40 PM
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Todd Milhoan
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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In grappling magazine? big deal.. lol, Matt Furey is always in there.. 'nuff said. "Dont come on and preach to us about submission because some of us have a hell of a lot more experience in it than you do... " lol, amen to that.
11/2/02 3:45 PM
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Todd Milhoan
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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Siumac, So he created the T-ball version of sambo.. "Everybody's a winner!" ?
11/2/02 3:46 PM
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bjjboxer
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Edited: 02-Nov-02 03:48 PM
Member Since: 14-Oct-02
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Todd Milhoan, How do you know what my experience is in submission? I just made a statement for the sport as a whole and if that offended you than to bad. I don't know what you want to get out of training (if you do) but I know a lot of people want good things to happen for this sport and I think that the DOC is trying to do just that. Maybe you should too!!!
11/2/02 3:46 PM
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SIUMAC
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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Realistic Martial Arts Training Asn
I dont know what you mean Todd. It's a tournament and like any other, nobody wins them all.
11/2/02 3:50 PM
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Todd Milhoan
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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SIUMAC, That it's a "sambo tournament" but we changed the rules so that "everybody can compete" Then don't call it sambo, and quit wearing a freakin black belt. McLeod, I want good things to happen for Sambo.. as for whatever "this sport" is.. it sure the hell isn't sambo.
11/2/02 3:53 PM
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Osaekomi
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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Grappling Mag articles are submitted by the impetus of the individual to the mag not visa versa. Hey McLeod, remember what Sgt. Hulka said, "Lighten up Frances". BTW almost everyone that has posted on this thread, Quincy, Josh, Todd, Gregg, Bret, Koga, me, judo guy, et al. know what we are talking about so relax. BTW Dr. Pordash has gained more publicity for his event through this thread than he could possibly have hoped for.
11/2/02 3:56 PM
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Todd Milhoan
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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lol, I must be too young to know who Sgt. Hulka is.. oh yeah, thats cuz I'm just a dumb kid, what was I thinking.
11/2/02 4:31 PM
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QUINCY RICE
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Edited: 02-Nov-02
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Personally, I know what Podash is thinking,I thought this way before as well..That the sport is limiting where the art can go, but then when I dropped my ego and figured out that everyone's goals are not the same as mine, I realized it was all in my head.. BTW,It really isnt any closer to a fight, it is just a different set of rules..I get my ass kicked in Sport judo, in submission and mma I do well..If you ask me, Judo is the harder fight..I realize we are talking about sambo on this thread but this is an example of how a "sport" can be the biggest fight of them all...
11/3/02 12:38 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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Edited: 03-Nov-02
Member Since: 12-Jun-02
Posts: 569
i still feel bad for the poor brainwashed childern of a misguided organization. they dont seem to understand that it matters not what the Doc's skill level is. being a world champion does not mean he is qualified to go out and start his own organization. sambo, as we all know, is the biggest mess in the MA world within the US. reason being that any fool like Doc is free to go out and start his own sect rather then bringing his guys into a legit organization that actually trains people for worldwide, serious competition. i just feel bad for you guys. not because you are learning bad stuff, because i am sure you are learning some alright stuff, but because you actually think that this guy is the savior to Sambo in the US. as far as the tournament goes... calling it an open forms sambo event limits it. the moment people see sambo in the title they throw out the damn flier. it they saw "open grappling event" they might take a look at it and consider it. poor, poor marketing strategy. but.. I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHO DOC's JUDO CHAMPIONS ARE... he hasnt given a single name. bjjboxer, siumac, and the other misguided fellas out there... you should want to know who these judo champions are as well... afterall, he claimed to have trianed them in his earlier post so arent you rather curious as well??? i mean, i'd be pretty damn upset if i was you guys. paying all this money to a guy who could also make you into a judo champion but just isnt for whatever reason... i'd be mad as hell to not be getting the best out of what the Doc has to offer for my money. so please. tell me who your judo champions are. i want to know. give me a few damn names and then i will be a happy fella who can rest at peace, until i run into one of his guys at the nationals and have to shiver in my boots because i know the Doc is gonna be at matside. -Resnick

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