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SoldierGround >> ARMY FIGHTERS NOT ALLOWED TO FIGHT

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7/24/07 6:57 PM
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Combat MMA
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Edited: 24-Jul-07
Member Since: 06/11/2002
Posts: 1040
Fort Bragg Combat MMA
 
Dave/Matt, Just wondering what is the latest on the Combatives School Batt. CMDR not allowing Benning Army fighters to fight MMA events and represent the Army? Is that the extent of the "rules", as I have also now heard that the Army fighters at benning are not allowed to fight MMA at all without approval? Jeff
7/25/07 9:29 AM
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JasonKeaton
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Edited: 25-Jul-07
Member Since: 03/12/2002
Posts: 2116
I thought they could fight just not prepresent the army.
7/25/07 11:09 AM
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DaveBarron
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Edited: 25-Jul-07
Member Since: 02/07/2005
Posts: 122
Jeff, No instructor may particpate in an MMA event without signed permission from the 2/29th Battalion Commander. Dave
7/25/07 11:17 AM
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rafie
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Edited: 25-Jul-07
Member Since: 11/21/2005
Posts: 381
Dave Pro or amateur? Benning only or all of us ?
7/25/07 6:37 PM
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Combat MMA
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Edited: 25-Jul-07
Member Since: 06/11/2002
Posts: 1045
Fort Bragg Combat MMA
Dave, Is the 2/29 Battalion CMDR signing off on the fighters or giving them a hard time? This does not seem to be a great step forward. Thoughts?
7/26/07 3:11 AM
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EbolaMonkey
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Edited: 26-Jul-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 3011
No instructor? Good reason to not get certified.
7/26/07 3:01 PM
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DaveBarron
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Edited: 26-Jul-07
Member Since: 02/07/2005
Posts: 124
Jeff; et al, The United States Army Combatives School falls under 2/29th, so the BN CMDR that has command of the school makes everybody get a memorandum signed before a fight. If you are not in this unit this commanders policy does not affect you. None of the memorandums or pass requests have been denied thus far. Dave
7/27/07 11:40 AM
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AsiaI
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Edited: 27-Jul-07
Member Since: 06/19/2002
Posts: 169
It just seems that the commander is just keeping tabs on what his joes are doing. Nothing wrong with that. At least he is allowing them to fight. I've been told flat out that I couldn't fight before.
7/29/07 11:28 AM
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PimpSmack
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Edited: 29-Jul-07
Member Since: 06/18/2004
Posts: 298

Leaders, leadership, etc.....hmmm this sounds like the Army.

PS

7/30/07 4:53 AM
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macpfighter
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Edited: 30-Jul-07
Member Since: 10/28/2006
Posts: 97
All, A similar issue to this was going around a few months back after a Soldier out at Leonard Wood got his ass handed to him in a cage fight. The word going around was that Soldiers would need to get approval from their chain of command prior to entering a fight. This is the first I've heard of it actually being implemented though. It doesn't seem like a huge issue. It's actually a good control measure to keep untrained personnel from getting hurt in a cage that they have no business being in. Jimm
7/31/07 8:21 PM
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TerribleTed
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Edited: 31-Jul-07
Member Since: 10/14/2004
Posts: 493
Interesting discussion. On one hand a control measure might not be such a bad idea -- not to hurt anyone's feelings, but look at how many guys run around and talk like they fell out of the Gracie tree. Worst part is they really believe they are that good. Truth be told, they might be a big fish in a very very small pond such as their Platoon or Company which is full of basically un or under trained guys; which fosters their own internal legend. At the end of the day they really are not making a lot of gains. Then that same guys, who is training with low skilled individuals is further set up for failure due to training breaks for Field Training, Schools, TDY etc. So our hero (who truly believes he is better than he is) decides he wants to test his metal in the ring outside of his pond. He finds a promoter who will let him in his show. That same promoter has an upcoming fighter he is building a record for before he goes pro (say it isn't so – promoters wouldn't do that). This fighter, who isn't in the Army and doesn't have training breaks and fair chance gets to train more often with better skilled training partners, is matched up with him. Our hero goes into the fight with the best intentions and trained as best as he could, but was not set up for success from the start. Our hero gets his ass kicked real bad. In this case control measures are a good idea. On the other hand, we have another guy. He trains his unit and takes the personnel initiative to go out and further his knowledge training at a reputable Jiu-Jitsu, Kickboxing or MMA based school(s). He is technically sound and trains with other technically proficient people. He also happens to be in an assignment that doesn't take him away all that often. He has the time prior to the fight for a good train up. He goes to his chain of command for permission to fight and they say no way, we don't want you to get hurt. In this case it didn't work. A large problem comes from the chain of command doesn't understand the sport. They also don't understand it is a sport (with rules and a ref). Many, probably most, average people, don't grasp the bigger picture. They don't understand the intricacies of ground work, the angles and hip movements – they see two dudes rolling around on the ground. They don't understand the dynamics of striking, the timing and movements, the integration of the hips, foot work etc – they see two dudes whacking each other. They don't see the skill involved in take downs, the changing of levels, the set ups, the entry angles – they see, man he tackled that dude to the ground. In the end it is a double edged sword. There are many guys in the Army who are trained, have the resources required to be successful and have the background to do MMA and be successful. These guys get the shaft on many occasions by some policies and procedures. On the other side, guys like our hero, probably get saved a very bad beating.
7/31/07 9:31 PM
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PimpSmack
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Edited: 31-Jul-07
Member Since: 06/18/2004
Posts: 302

Hey Ted -

    We (everyone who is a fighter/trainer/leader) are involved in a long process to change the culture in the Army and in the country for that matter.  Keep focused on the positive and let the nay sayers say nay.  They will soon realize that the system is in place and the train is rolling.  They're either on it or not.

c

8/1/07 7:53 AM
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DaveBarron
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Edited: 01-Aug-07
Member Since: 02/07/2005
Posts: 125
Chris, Ted has struck a chord that rings true in our particular situation. We are talking about a specific organization in our case that is totally immersed in training and fighting six days a week. We obviously have insight into how to pick and train for correct fights. In this one instance we have folks higher up who have absolutely no knowledge of this sport making the decision wether or not it is appropriate to engage in the process. How would this person make these decisions? What critera would he use to determine whether or not a specific contest is appropriate or not? Would he know that if we take a fight in Alabama there is no requirement for a sanctioning body and therefore rules are left to the promoter's whim, whereas in Georgia the SAC has stringent rules to accompany any contest? Is this policy REALLY going to "take care of Soldiers"? This is obviously way above my pay grade, however, it has a direct impact on everything we do. Something to consider. Dave
8/1/07 10:01 PM
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TerribleTed
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Edited: 01-Aug-07
Member Since: 10/14/2004
Posts: 494
Just to keep fueling the discussion................ When I was a commander, I had zero soldiers sustaining significant injuries (i.e – loss of work time or capability / not counting bumps and bruises – that's expected) from any combat sports (i.e Boxing, Wrestling, Jiu-jitsu etc). On the other hand – I had dozens of Soldiers injured playing basketball, both CONUS and deployed (which had a larger 2nd order effect- but that is another story.) So at the end of the day I totally support PimpSacks movement, but plan to start an anti-basketball movement – to really keep Soldiers from getting hurt :)
8/2/07 4:43 AM
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macpfighter
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Edited: 02-Aug-07
Member Since: 10/28/2006
Posts: 99
I second the anti-basketball movement.
8/3/07 11:23 PM
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PimpSmack
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Edited: 03-Aug-07
Member Since: 06/18/2004
Posts: 304

I've learned a new saying in the last few months since I used to hang out regularly at the ole six-niner.  "It is what it is."  This is a viewpoint I don't think I considered before.  When you boil it all down, it is the commanders who are responsible for what a unit does, or fails to do. 

c

8/4/07 9:03 AM
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Normal MT
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Edited: 04-Aug-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 319

On Terrible Teds note about injuries. I'm not enlisted so take it for what its worth, but I have been teaching since 85, over the years I have had numerious individuals tell me that they have a torn ACL or whatever, old football injuries, and tore up ankles coming down on a layup or from some basketball injuries, and what have you.

A student will come in and tell me that they cant train this week because they slid into a base and bruised their hip. Mostly the "Weekend Warrior" syndrome is what I call it. But the people who have "graduated" into adulthood and are trying to maintain some degree of health through a combative approach stay healthier and somewhat more injury free I think (shit happens of course when your punching and kicking people).

I dont know how many times I have repeated this kind of statement, tongue in cheek on these occassions, "You know people get hurt all the time playing Football, Basketball, Baseball, Volleyball, Tennis, Golf, & Chess. I never see people get hurt in training Thai Boxing, more then what a small band aid would take care of". Then I tell them to grow the fuck up and get serious about training and let the kids play thier games.

Just my observation.

Dave Rogers

 

8/4/07 11:08 AM
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TrappeBier
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Edited: 04-Aug-07 11:13 AM
Member Since: 04/06/2005
Posts: 620
Did you guys still want an officer on the staff at the combatives school?
8/4/07 11:22 AM
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TerribleTed
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Edited: 04-Aug-07
Member Since: 10/14/2004
Posts: 497
Thoughts on training injuries........ I will wager in the few instances of people getting injured in martial arts/ combat sport training come from two things. 1) Legitimate accidents 2) Poor instructors 1) Legitimate accidents: These are the "shit happens" things that happen in everyday life, and in turn also happen in training. Things like stubbing a toe in the mat, or rolling across a finger. It stinks and fortunately most of the time it just causes annoying injuries that you can deal with and keep training. You can mitigate it as much as possible, but it's still going to happen. No different than tripping over the dog going to the can at night or slipping on ice on in the winter. 2) Poor Instructors. This is the real problem area. Good instructors monitor their class and keep things in check. They encourage training courtesies (or rule) and only allow people to train at a level they are ready for. Sadly there are a few instructors out there that don't do either of the above well. For example: - Courtesies/rules: I'll use heel hooks as an example. With the growing popularity of combat sports (which is a good thing) many people are venturing out to schools and clubs to learn. I've seen schools where heel hooks are common and used as often as chokes and arm bars. The potential problem comes when you have a new student, who has not quite figured out how they work, trying to apply a heel hook. He doesn't realize that it doesn't take a lot of pressure to cause a great deal of damage. Or you have a mid level student applying it to a new student. The new student doesn't know which way to turn to escape, just that he has to turn to escape, and when he tries to turn the wrong way he rips apart his own knee. It is up to the instructor(with the help of the senior students) to set and enforce the ground rules the keep everyone healthy. - The instructor has to also monitor the intensity levels. Hard training and competition is great and makes us all better. Sometimes, however, you get guys who can be a little too competitive in training. They get overly emotional and forget they are training and try to "win". This can be counterproductive in training, because then both people are worried about the "win" vs. trying and working new techniques. In the long run the guy who tries to "win" all the time in training will not improve his game very much. He will not expand his knowledge base and try new things. His game will become very one dimensional and stale.

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