UnderGround Forums
 

HolyGround >> attn:rooster


9/7/07 1:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Robert Wynne
87 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/05/10 7:19 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2701
 
 ..edited
9/8/07 12:24 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
the rooster
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 08-Sep-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 15613
It's a plural noun and when used in the singular means "plurality of majesty". It does not mean "trinity". It does not mean "brother". It can refer to individual beings as Moses is called an Elohim (god) as is Satan. It doesn't mean "brother". you: the correct translation of the only place the word appears in genesis IS: and then the Gods said,"Let us make man in our image,and after our likeness."... me: that is not the correct translation and you won't find a bible that translates it from the original Hebrew, nor any references by Jews to this corrupted mistranslation. I'm not sure where you got that. the correct translation would be "The One God of innumerable majesty, power and attribues..." (that's plural singular and refers to the magestic plurality of God's attributes). Further, that is far from the only place that Elohim appears in the bible. It's listed countless times. Where are you getting your information?!!? And again, you are inconsistent and all over the place. You said that Jesus was not God, only the Father was God. Now you are saying that genesis referes to a council of gods talking (Jesus being one of them). Is He God or not? Or is he a god? Also, when was Jesus born or begotten? The bible says He was born and begotten, by a woman, in Jerusalem. Are you saying Jesus was twice born?!?!
9/8/07 12:36 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
the rooster
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 08-Sep-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 15614
Rabbi Tovia Singer: There are three possibilities: 1. God's nature is pluralistic and He was conversing with the other Hims. 2. God is addressing his court of angels. 3. The plural forms of the words are used royally. Hebrew pluralized words out of respect or to indicate greatness or majesty, not necessarily indicating number. Here's some quotes ... found regarding these possibilities from study guides: "The plural 'We' was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity: modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis...No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as pluralis majestatis" (Keil & Delitzsch, Commentary on the Old Testament, Peabody: Hendric., 1989, Vol. I, p. 62). "The plural pronoun us is most likely a majestic plural from the standpoint of Hebrew grammar and syntax" (Jerry Falwell (Executive Editor), Liberty Annotated Study Bible, Lynchburg: Liberty University, 1988, p. 8). "us...our...our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court. (see 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8; see also I Ki 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jer 23:18)" (NIV Study Bible, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1985, p. 7). "Christians have traditionally seen [Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author" (Gordon J. Wenham, Word Biblical Commentary on Genesis, Word Books, 1987, p. 27).
9/10/07 10:03 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Robert Wynne
87 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/05/10 7:20 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2703

edited

9/10/07 1:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Robert Wynne
87 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/05/10 7:20 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2704

"

1/8/09 11:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Robert Wynne
87 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3645
 one that you ran from
1/9/09 12:06 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
the rooster
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 16589
I never ran from this LIAR. This was over a year ago. I left the forum for quite a while after I got a new promotion. I don't even remember this. I think you must make up these weird fantastic scenario's in your mind where everyone is stunned by your illiterate theology and goes running when they might actually go to work or do something with their family.

You didn't even get what I was saying up there or what the purpose of the quote was. It was such an irrational response I imagine I laughed and forgot about it.

Again, don't be bitter and resentful because the bible affirms Jesus is God.

God was manifest in the flesh.

Isaiah said the Son given was also the Mighty God and Everlasting Father. Don't run from the truth. Jesus is both LORD AND GOD.
2/11/09 5:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
moJom
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/10/07
Posts: 77
I would say Zech 12 and many others confirm He is the Great I AM as well

ZECH 12

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
2/11/09 11:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
the rooster
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 16798
Amen
2/12/09 3:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 310
Elok(h)eim is plural for k(EL).  I  looked in the JPS translation of it and they say it's more of a universalist or abstract notion of Gd, not Gds name, per say.  Many cultures were using this name to depict their Gds.  So it's not equivilant to the holy YKVK tetragramaton name of Gd...  There's more but unable to devote the time at the moment....

Incidentally did you know that Superman was Jewish? 
The House of k EL?
Jor-E L
Kal - E L

Maybe Jews are from Krypton...
2/12/09 3:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 311
Elok(h)eim is plural for k(EL).  I  looked in the JPS translation of it and they say it's more of a universalist or abstract notion of Gd, not Gds name, per say.  Many cultures were using this name to depict their Gds.  So it's not equivilant to the holy YKVK tetragramaton name of Gd...  There's more but unable to devote the time at the moment....

Incidentally did you know that Superman was Jewish? 
The House of k EL?
Jor-E L
Kal - E L

Maybe Jews are from Krypton...
2/12/09 4:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 312

 

Any intelligent Jew who has a knowledge of Hebrew and wishes to devote himself to studying the Bible can take an independent stand on most (exegetical) questions that arise … provided that one combines fined-tuned attention to the verses of Scripture – a skill that must be acquired in the process of studying – with independent thinking that refuses to give up its right to form judgments independent of authorities on the subject, even such as have become sacredly venerated names in the course of generations. [1]
The above quotation comprises the essence of the research ethic of one of the deepest and most thorough Bible commentators of the twentieth century: Benno Jacob (Breslau 1862 –London 1945). Benno Jacob’s contribution to modern biblical exegesis was brought to the attention of the Hebrew reader by Nehama Leibowitz, a great admirer of his, who cited him in her commentaries, Iyyunim (Studies).  Benno Jacob was a liberal rabbi who officiated in several German communities. Precisely because he was affiliated with liberal Judaism his strenuous opposition to Bible criticism is all the more notable. Its conclusions, he maintained, were tainted by theological tendentiousness, and its method was lacking insofar as it assumed that which it sought to show. Jacob, in contrast, even though he did not feel bound to the traditional position in his exegesis, often arrived at identical exegetical conclusions to those of the traditional Jewish Bible commentators. His main contribution to exegesis in these instances lies in the linguistic and contextual arguments he brings to support his conclusions.  These arguments give his commentaries added scholarly value. We shall illustrate his method through his commentary on one of the better-known questions that arises in this week’s reading.
The first two verses of the reading have received especial attention from Bible commentators and philosophers.  The statement that the Holy One, blessed be He, appeared to the patriarchs as El Shaddai but did not make Himself known to them by His name Y-H-W-H (the Lord) has invited numerous interpretations dealing with central theological questions. The various names of the Holy One, blessed be He, as they appear in Scripture have always been an important focus of theology and philosophy, and it is little wonder that Biblical criticism was born out of the investigation, albeit tendentious, of the appearance of different names for G-d.
Of the various commentaries on these verses (Ex. 6:2-3), Rashi’s stands out for its simplicity and clarity:
I am the Lord – Who am faithful to recompense, … And I appeared – to the patriarchs, by the name of El Shaddai – I made certain promises to them and in all of these I said to them, “I am El Shaddai.” But by my name the Lord (Y-H-W-H) was I not known to them – It is not written here that I did not make known to them, but that I was not known to them, in the sense that I was not recognized by them in terms of My attribute of keeping My word, by reason of which My name is called Y-H-W-H, indicating that I am certain to substantiate My promises, for I made promises to them but did not fulfill them [during their lifetime].
2/12/09 4:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 313
 
In his commentary on Exodus [2] Benno Jacob devotes fourteen pages to these verses (pp. 139-152). Part of what he has to say is a response to Bible criticism, which saw the Torah’s announcement of the transition from the name El Shaddai to the tetragrammaton (the ineffable name of four letters) as further proof of its central hypothesis that the Torah was written by several authors who used different names for the Deity. Rashi’s interpretation, “It is not written here that I did not make known to them, but that I was not known to them,” explains the change in name as a change in behavior (from a G-d who makes promises to a G-d who fulfills them), and not as the announcement of a new name for G-d.
Benno Jacob backs this idea by citing additional verses from the Torah and the Prophets and Writings. For example, when the patriarch Jacob said retrospectively to his son Joseph, “El Shaddai appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan” (Gen. 48:3), he was referring to the nature of G-d’s revelation to him upon his departure from Beer Sheba for Haran, and he put it in this way, despite the fact that the text at that earlier point never mentioned the name El Shaddai at all, but rather used the tetragrammaton (Gen. 28:13: “And the Lord was standing beside him and He said, ‘I am the Lord [Y-H-W-H]’”).  The patriarchs knew the name Y-H-W-H as the One who “says and promises,” but they had not yet experienced its realization as the One who “does and fulfills.”
The latter characterization, as the central meaning of the tetragrammaton, is supported in Benno Jacob’s commentary by verses from Numbers (14:35:  “I the Lord have spoken:  Thus will I do”) and Ezekiel: “I the Lord have spoken and I will act” (22:14; also cf. 12:25, 24:14, 36:36, and 37:14), where the tetragrammaton is used to indicate “saying and doing, … decreeing and fulfilling.” In his words, the tetragrammaton is the sole “personal” name of the Holy One, blessed be He:
…The name Y-H-W-H does not denote one of the names of the Holy One, blessed be He; rather it is The Name, as it is said in Isaiah 42:8: “I am the Lord (Y-H-W-H), that is My name; I will not yield My glory to another.” Therefore, it cannot be that El Shaddai denotes an earlier name of the Deity (from the patriarchal period), as Bible criticism dogmatically insists.  For if that were so, the beginning of the verse would have to have been phrased, “I appeared … in the name of El Shaddai.”  Moreover, we do not find even a single instance in which it is written, “and El Shaddai said,” or “El Shaddai spoke” (p. 146).
2/12/09 4:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 314
 
In addition, Benno Jacob further reinforces his view that we are dealing with the manifestation of G-d’s ways in the world and not with His name by pointing to the fact that nowhere in Scripture does the root y–d–‘ (to know) denote making a new name known, rather it always indicates a deeper sort of understanding or a greater awareness (this word, awareness, uses the same Hebrew root, y-d-‘; pp. 144-145). One outstanding example out of the many that he cites comes from the continuation of our parasha:  “And you shall know that I, the Lord (Y-H-W-H), [am your G-d]” (Ex. 6:7). According to Jacob, this verse reverberates in contrast to what was said several verses earlier, “but I did not make myself known to them [the patriarchs] by My name Y-H-W-H.”
Moreover, if we were truly dealing with revelation of a name that had not previous been known (as Bible criticism tries to maintain), then the root g-l-h, to reveal, would have been used, and not y-d-‘, to know (p. 148).  According to Benno Jacob, the distinction between the name El Shaddai and the tetragrammaton in our parasha is also reflected in the verbs that are used in conjunction with these two names: “appeared” and “made myself known:”
These verbs do not denote a greater or lesser intimacy in G-d’s revelation to the individual human being. It is a fact that Numbers 12:6 states with respect to the lower degree of prophecy, “I make Myself known to him in a vision” (using both the roots, r-a-h, to see, and y-d-‘, to know)… This is not the sense in which G-d’s revelation to the patriarchs differed from His revelation to Moses; rather, here one sort of revelation is contrasted with another, where the second kind of revelation [that given to Moses] could not yet have occurred [in the time of the fathers], insofar as it is destined only for an entire people and not for individuals. This sort of revelation necessitates that the Lord’s might be revealed in deeds of such magnitutde that only the name Y-H-W-H suits them.
In contrast to the verb “to see,” here the verb “to know” (vida’atem) is interpreted as  pertaining to realization of something, in the current case realization of the deeds necessary for the promise to be fulfilled. Benno Jacob rests his argument on such verses as:  “But I acted for the sake of My name, … For it was before their eyes that I had made Myself known to them [Israel] to bring them out of the land of Egypt” (Ezek. 20:9) and “when I made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I gave my oath to them” (Ezek. 20:5). In these verses, G-d’s making Himself known (root y-d-‘) to His people finds expression in the deeds which He wrought for them to take them out of the land of Egypt.
In this article I have tried to give the reader a small example of Benno Jacob’s extensive commentary on Exodus. Like the rest of Benno Jacob’s works (among them his commentary on Genesis and other important compositions that include his unique attempts to cope with Bible criticism), this commentary has not yet been translated into Hebrew. As for the liberal identification of their author, which made Nehama Leibowitz feel she had to apologize for citing him, [3] I turn to what Maimonides wrote in Hilkhot Kiddush Ha-Hodesh (17.24): “Wherever there is something whose reason is revealed or whose truth known through faultless evidence, one relies not on the person who said the things or who deduced them, but on the proof that was revealed or the reason that became clear.”
Benno Jacob is among the more profound and sensitive of Bible scholars in modern times, and indeed remained true to the research ethic which he established for himself as a Jewish scholar: loving the Bible, attending to the fine nuances of its verses, and thinking independently.
2/12/09 11:24 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
LoveToChoke
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/13/09 12:07 AM
Member Since: 11/1/06
Posts: 257
Karen Armstrong has a different take on this.

At the time of writing, Elohim meant "Gods" i.e. El, Baal, Anat, Marduk etc. She says that Abraham's god was probably El, the high god of the Caananites. Yahweh came later (with Moses if I remember correctly) and has a different personality to El - jealous, angry etc compared to a cool detachment.
2/13/09 2:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
the rooster
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 16803
770: Incidentally did you know that Superman was Jewish?
The House of k EL?
Jor-E L
Kal - E L

Maybe Jews are from Krypton...

me: actually I did know that. Interesting that Jor-El sends his son from the heavens. Kal-el has 2 natures or identities. One is human and this human form is meek. His other form is nigh divine. He's super human. However, he has a weakness and can be bruised or broken (kryptonite) yet he always seems to win in the end

:- )

Very messianic.
2/13/09 3:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 317
 Rooster, you are my favorite.  I think you're the only one who actually reads my created threads, challenges my rantings and motivates me to investigate my own stuff, all without throwing a hissy fit. 

G-d Bless you Man!

M-
2/14/09 12:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
the rooster
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 16806
Ha, no problem bro. You have good things to add. By the way I think the creator of the Superman series was Jewish. Maybe it was some collective subconcious messianic impulse? Who knows.

May G-d bless you too!
5/4/10 10:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1315
 http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g-Zs3QN1qrppAXeYxRjiptOn0yMw

Shazam! Berlin looks at superheroes' Jewish roots

BERLIN — If Superman had had his way, Hitler would have wound up begging for mercy before the League of Nations in Geneva in 1940, and there would never have been an Auschwitz.

A major new exhibition, which opened at Berlin's Jewish Museum, argues it was no coincidence that the biggest superheroes including Superman, Spiderman, Batman and the Hulk were all created by Jewish comic artists.

"Heroes, Freaks and Superrabbis -- the Jewish Colour of Comics" looks at 45 of the most successful comic creators, overwhelmingly children of European Jewish families who had emigrated to New York.

As comic books entered their golden age in the 1930s and 1940s, the most iconic superheroes were products of those troubled times, even taking on Adolf Hitler and his Nazi henchmen before the Americans did.

"The point of the exhibition isn't to say comics are a Jewish speciality," said Anne Helene Hoog, one of the curators.

"Rather, it looks at the question why so many Jews became comic artists, and what issues preoccupied them."

In February 1940, nearly two years before Pearl Harbor, "How Superman Would End the War" by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster has the Man of Steel making quick work of the diminutive Nazi leader.

"I'd like to land a strictly non-Aryan sock on your jaw, but there's no time for that!" Superman tells a grovelling Hitler as he dispatches him to Switzerland to face justice, along with Stalin to boot.

A month later, Captain America by Jack Kirby (born Jacob Kurtzberg) and Joe Simon thwarts a Nazi plot to invade America with a wallop to the Fuehrer's nose in a legendary cover sketch.

Hoog said the superheroes were often depicted, like their artists, as outsiders who, with an immigrant's deep patriotism, battle to save their adopted home country from an outside threat.

That image resonated powerfully at a time when the world appeared to be falling apart, Hoog said.

"In light of the failure of democracy in Europe, it was clear that young people -- particularly the children of immigrants, poor people, refugees -- confronted with misery, fear, violence, injustice and finally extermination, were alarmed by what was happening in the world," she said.

"In the 1930s, there was a deep need for superheroes," she added, and Jewish artists were happy to oblige.

Although none of the major superheroes were overtly Jewish, their heroic journeys were often steeped in Old Testament imagery, noted Jewish Museum programme director Cilly Kugelmann.

"Like Moses, Superman was discovered as an apparently abandoned baby and raised by the people who found him," she said, adding that the character also had roots in Greek mythology, Germanic tales and the story of Jesus Christ.

Even "Shazam!", the magic word that turns young Billy Batson into 1970s-era Captain Marvel, had quasi-Jewish roots. The word is an acronym for the legendary heroes who inspire him and the first letter, "S", stands for wise King Solomon of Israel.

Many of the comic artists worked as paper boys when they were young in the 1920s, selling newspapers amid the tenements on New York's Lower East Side, where their love for the "funnies" was born.

After the war, with time Jewish graphic novelists began confronting the Holocaust tentatively at first, culminating in the harrowing Pulitzer-prize-winning Maus series by Art Spiegelman.

In the two volumes published in 1986 and 1991, Spiegelman tells the story of his Shoah-survivor father, a Polish-born Jew, and the author's own feelings of guilt and rage toward him as he was growing up.

With his literary ambition, Spiegelman revolutionised the genre.

Comics also accompanied the counterculture movement of the 1960s, with Mad magazine and subversive "comix" by Jewish women such as Trina Roberts and Aline Kominsky-Crumb.

Hoog said a current of irony runs through many of the works, highlighting Steve Sheinkin's "The Adventures of Rabbi Harvey" and "Rabbi Harvey Rides Again" about a Jewish cleric superhero in the Wild West.

Punctuating the point, a caped Superman statue outside the museum shows him crashed into the pavement, with Krypton blood trickling from his head. The sculpture is called "Even Superheroes Have Bad Days".

The Berlin exhibition was conceived in cooperation with the Museum of Art and History of Judaism in Paris and the Jewish Historical Museum in Amsterdam, which each had previous shows that have been adapted and expanded here.

It features more than 200 original comics, including rare sketches signed by the artists, and runs until August 8.

5/4/10 4:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Robert Wynne
87 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/04/10 5:06 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5792
 well your agenda seems clear 
5/5/10 12:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
the rooster
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 17748
hey 770, that's cool. I haven't been on here much with my job but got on today and saw your piece on the comic book hero's. I was always a big comic book fan and my son is. The x-men were my favorite and in the movie version they draw a lot of connections with Magneto (who was jewish and was in a concentration camp with mutants. he will fight humans rather then be destroyed like his parents were. That's cool.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.