UnderGround Forums
 

DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> you may wanna check this out


9/19/07 12:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Poignant
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 19-Sep-07
Member Since: 11/25/2002
Posts: 48
 
Critiques of the spear from hochiem http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php?topic=3064.0 RS
9/19/07 4:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Paul R
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 20-Sep-07 07:22 AM
Member Since: 08/23/2004
Posts: 12
These types of discussions are old and useless. Having said that, it amazes me how much time and energy people spend putting down other systems. Maybe this is only done when they are threatened by them. Anyway, it seems what we have here is the common misconception that the SPEAR system is just "one move" which is utterly ridiculous. Also, comparing the SPEAR to what a white-belt karate student would do is laughable. Finally, they say that the most common attacks are roundhouse punches, shoves and tackles...which in the SPEAR system are called PIA's..and those attacks (and many others) are addressed by the BMF model. To anyone reading the posts on that forum, I would recommend that they spend some time studying the SPEAR system and then draw their own conclusions. Paul Rossi
9/19/07 10:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Poignant
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 19-Sep-07
Member Since: 11/25/2002
Posts: 49
I have and am convinced bud, don't be so insecure, I'm not trying to stir shit just informing y'all is all. Thought someone qualified may like to go explain things there is all. Peace out.
9/20/07 7:15 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Paul R
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 20-Sep-07 07:22 AM
Member Since: 08/23/2004
Posts: 13
RS, That was not directed at you...just a general statement to anyone who ventured over to the other forum... Paul
9/20/07 9:34 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jsteinmann
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 20-Sep-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 250
"Thought someone qualified may like to go explain things there is all. " In my experience, attempts to "explain things" over the internet are usually about as productive as pissing on a forest fire.
9/20/07 10:04 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Poignant
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 20-Sep-07
Member Since: 11/25/2002
Posts: 50
My bad Paul. My apologies. I hear ya jsteinmann. True enough. Sorry for bringing it up. RS
9/20/07 10:45 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jsteinmann
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 20-Sep-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 251
I don't think it's something you need to apologize for. :-)
9/24/07 8:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
P
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 24-Sep-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 356
"You can't get time back" TB :-) P.
11/18/07 6:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tony Blauer
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 18-Nov-07 06:40 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1010
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
"The SPEAR system utilizes instinctive motion to effect a combative change in both participants. Its effectiveness is grounded in basic physiology and as a result although initially apparently simple it is fundamentally as complex as the system it is designed to protect, humans." -Robert Smith MD --- From white paper reivew by Dr. Erc Levasseur: The University of Paris did an interesting experiment in 2000 (following in Da Gloria footsteps/1984). Their findings showed that stimuli such as pain or fear automatically elicit patterns of terminal motor state corresponding to fight or flight, initiating processes of preparation of spatially oriented movements witch are automatic and sex-typed and impair the use of the terminal cues for simultaneous preprogrammed voluntary movements. This experience also showed that most men will respond with extension of the arms following an aversive stimulus but woman will respond with flexion in 50% of the time. This experiment also showed that if we tell the subjects to do the movement that is unnatural to them for example: tell men to flex their arms, their reaction time is considerably lengthened. To me these experiments support the S.P.E.A.R. concepts defined by Mr. Blauer. Only in the third module does the conscious aspect come into play. Here again we have multiple components witches are: motivation, action readiness, action tendency, biasing of perception, cues for cognition and action and the feeling state. Here again much of these are covered in Mr. Blauer`s system. The fear feeling in evolutionary perspective motivates self-protecting behaviors. The potency of the fear feeling dominates all functional systems. It tends to eliminate all parts of the perceptual fields that don't serve the fight or flight response; it generates cognitive bias and reduces working memory. If we want fear feelings to have an adaptive effect we need to have appropriate connection lines among emotions, cognition and action system. This is well covered in Mr. Blauer's system of self-defense. My review of the medical literature showed that while the studies where not done for self-defense in particular but rather to look at the effects of sudden fear or aversive stimuli on the human mind and body they found concepts that are described in Mr. Blauer`s system. It seems his concepts are reproducible in different discipline and are universally valid. ----- SPEAR System: Medical Review Dr Anthony Bleetman PhD FRCSEd FFAEM DipIMC RCSEd Consultant in Emergency Medicine, Birmingham Heartlands Hospital Doctor, Warwickshire & Northamptonshire Air Ambulance Honorary Senior Clinical Lecturer in Surgery, University of Birmingham Honorary Senior Clinical Lecturer in Primary Health Care Studies, University of Warwick Portion of Dr. Bleetman's findings: Role of the startle response in self-defence during sudden ambush The flinch response is a well-recognised reflex response in which the threatened subject adopts an automatic protective posture. The SPEAR system promotes recognition of the flinch response to sudden potentially threatening stimuli and advocates a system of self defence which commences from the postural position the response produces. As the resultant posture from the startle response is one we cannot choose, it makes sense that techniques of defence in sudden ambush start from this position. ----- Extensor strength is engaged to disengage from noxious stimuli via the cross extensor spinal level reflex and flexor reflex which is also at the spinal level. These are engaged at different rates depending on the mode of stimuli but they are uniform across the human species regardless of age and training. (Gilman, S and Winans, S. Manter and Gatz's Essentials of Clinical Neuroanatomy and Neurophysiology 8th edition pages 42.) --- Ed note: The research and findings from the scientific & medical communities only apply to human beings. *These physiological & psychological findings do not apply to some martial artists who's skills have evolved beyond science or for those martial artist who's speed is faster than physiology. ;-)
12/18/07 6:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
scbb6
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 18-Dec-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 28
I pretty much ignore what Hock has to say. I trained with him for a few years until I hooked up with Tony. Hock is all about the worship of his guys and what they can do for him. After attending a seminar a few years ago, I walked away with very little knowledge from Hock. He is associated with a few squared away guys, Marc Halleck, Jim McCann, but the rest of his guys are fawing acolytes. They like to dismiss anyone other than their Guru and only he can own the truth. Paul
12/20/07 6:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoeStagner
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 20-Dec-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 700
USMuayThai.com
I've been away from the BTS/PDR process for years now and in the past 20 years I've sought out every noted instructor / system that has caught my eye. I've never seen anyone else's commentary on Tony's system that provided me with ANY useful information. I will say this - their comments are often restricted to the SPEAR. In some ways I consider the vast interest in the SPEAR a bit unfortunate since to the layperson it tends to distract from the complete body of work that Tony has contributed. For me, I've learned (at least a little) something from Hock, Franco, MacYoung, Quinn, and Vunak (the folks that most often are compared to or have comment on Tony Blauer). I completely trust my own intellect and intuition and my success ratio as a coach reflects that trust. The time and money that I've invested in BTS training has been the best investment of any kind that I have made in my fight related endeavors. Frankly, for me, it is the SUM of Tony's research and work product that has mattered most. For me, the SUM of his work is greater than "all of the parts". I no longer work with Law Enforcement or Protection Professionals and I don't teach self defense. I exclusively train professional fighters. I almost exclusively use Blauer principals in preparing my fighters, and in doing so have maintained a 95 percent win ratio as a trainer. I've "learned" from 100s of folks over the years (I'm OLD :) I had the privilege to get to know Tony pretty well for a bit of time in the 80s It's not that Tony is a genius, its that he has a particular KIND of genius. I used to say that he "Looks at the picture and hears the music." I guess it's the American way - it's easier to detract form someone else then it is to succeed on your own. From my perspective your time is better spent on learning FROM Tony than it is listening to other people's opinions about Tony's curriculum, especially when the sum of their exposure to BTS methods is what they read in Black Belt Magazine :)
2/21/08 11:08 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Glenn Sunshine
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 21-Feb-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 333

"Ed note: The research and findings from the scientific & medical communities only apply to human beings. *These physiological & psychological findings do not apply to some martial artists who's skills have evolved beyond science or for those martial artist who's speed is faster than physiology. ;-) "

Tony,

I have heard from someone I consider a very effective martial artist and coach that the flinch reflex decreases considerably in MA training, particularly with contact IIRC. (I'd rather not name him because I don't want to personalize this.) If I'm understanding you correctly, this seems to be mistaken. Would you mind clarifying the effect of fighting experience/training on the flinch?

Thanks,

Glenn

2/22/08 3:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
armory
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 22-Feb-08
Member Since: 08/12/2005
Posts: 456
Joe Stagners post in this thread could be one of the most mature and clarifying pieces I have personally read in regards to Tony Blauers work. Perhaps because i also came up thru the TMA route, did quite a bit of training with LEO and other personal protection work and finally have settled for the time being with professional fighters. The intersting thread with all of them is that Blauers work was extremely relevent in all of those genres. Its not what Tony comes up with in regards to originality....to me, its his perspective and distilling of whats important. His recipes and perspectives dominate the training of our pro fighters. From specific training efforts, to strength and conditioning to the breakdown of every fight strategy...... Joe, you and I have never met. but bravo on a great perspective. Joe Mullings The Armory www.thearmory.tv
3/3/08 10:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tony Blauer
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04-Mar-08 12:25 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1015
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
Thanks Joe & Joe :-) Glenn, He is wrong. He is right. I have no idea what he's saying or what you're asking. Yes you flinch less when you train more, but only in the arena you're training in (context of the stress inoculation). Competing in the UFC doesn't undo millions of years of evolution. Learning not to blink under fire of punches doesn't mean you won't flinch, recoil and piss yourself when you're violently attacked at an ATM. Flip through MMA magazines (not martial art magazines) and look at the world's best flinching in every single picture. Every fighter flinches. Every human flinches. So I'm not exactly sure what your friend is talking about. Is he talking about reducing reaction time? Improving conversion speed? A former student of mine came up with a system that is faster then the flinch! Two known reality based instructors who never did scenario work pre-Panic Attack and scoffed at SPEAR, now have complex motor skill tactics that eerily look like elements of the SPEAR tactic (only they misunderstand the scientific & physiological orientation). The irony of all the hoopla is that our research helps you weather 'anything' that triggers the startle flinch reflex, so why in the world a small group of RBSD martial innovators feel the need to invent rationales for why this cant be is beyond me. Its physics and all the components that apply. I've shared with the martial arts world (for almost 30 years) a systemic, scientific system. My research is organic and has been adopted by the highest level trainers in the world who's students (cops & soldiers) truly risk their lives when they move towards harms way. My research has also been integrated by top MMA trainers and many pro athletes...lastly, I've also shared medical research from leading professionals from 3 continents, as well as referenced clinical research on a physiological system that is genetically hardwired into all humans... You've shared with me a martial artist (you'd rather not name) who has a theory... :-) Our research doesn't make people less dangerous. It makes them safer. If what he's teaching, preaching or selling makes you feel safer then by all means study that. PS: Glenn, Ive known you here for years, I know your question is sincere, so please do not take this reply personally. And while I didn't answer your question directly...I did answer correctly.;-) Tony
3/4/08 1:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Glenn Sunshine
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 334

Tony,

I certainly don't take the response as personal criticism. I know you take a lot of undeserved an unjustified flak all the time, and I'm glad you didn't take the question as trolling or anything. And you actually did answer the question, whether directly or not. It seems context is the key here, and even then, deconditioning has its limits.

Thanks as always for your time!

Glenn


Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.