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10/24/07 8:53 PM
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sniper1026
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Edited: 24-Oct-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1148
 
Debate: Dinesh D'Souza Debates Christopher Hitchens You tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boH_tJ0mCrU&eurl= FRAT Is Religion the Problem? Posted Oct 24th 2007 11:03AM by Dinesh D'Souza Filed under: Religion, Christianity, Controversy, Atheism Is religion the problem? This was the topic of my debate with America's leading atheist Christopher Hitchens before a packed house of a thousand people at the Ethical Culture Society auditorium in New York city. Hitchens is the author of God Is Not Great and I am the author of the new book What's So Great About Christianity. Unfortunately the organizers had to turn more than a hundred people away. It was a ferocious and lively debate, which also had its light moments, and many people on both sides said afterward that it was the best God v. atheism debate that has so far been held. The current crop of atheists -- Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Steven Pinker -- are mainly Darwinians who don't believe in God because they regard evolution as providing a sufficient accounting for life. Hitchens, however, says he is not an atheist but an "anti-theist." By this he means that he isn't just an unbeliever; he hates the God of traditional religion. He condemns Christianity as a wicked religion involving a sadomasochistic God who indulges in a gruesome sacrifice of his son. And why? To compel people to grovel before him. And if they don't (in Hitchen's portrayal) God hurls them into hell for eternity. Hitchens sees the crimes of religion, such as the Inquisition, as stemming from the inherently totalitarian nature of religion. My argument in the debate was that Christians would hardly recognize their beliefs and practices in this harsh and unbalanced account. For Christians, God helps to give ultimate meaning to life. Religion gives us a moral code to live by and to teach our children. Faith helps us to deal with hardship and suffering. The prospect of the afterlife gives us hope and helps us to believe that there is eventual justice in which the good are rewarded and unrepented evil held accountable. For Christians it is not the death of Christ but the resurrection that is the central doctrine. Sadomasochism doesn't even enter into it. Some of the most lively moments in the debate came when Hitchens and I discussed whether religion or atheism is responsible for the mass murders of history. I pointed out that even the Spanish Inquisition--a favorite atheist bugaboo -- killed 2,000 people over 350 years. By contrast, atheist tyrants like Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot killed tens of millions within the space of a few decades. Hitchens sought to argue that Communism retained many of the features of autocratic religious states. I countered by saying that if we hold religious regimes responsible for the crimes done in God's name, we should hold atheist regimes responsible for the crimes done in the name of creating an atheist utopia. Let's not blame religion not only for its own offenses but also for the offenses done by atheists on behalf of an atheist ideology. Who won? That's for you to judge. Hitchens and I are scheduled to appear tonight on Hannity & Colmes on the Fox News Channel to have another swing at each other. Our debate was also taped by C-Span 2 (Book TV) and will be aired on Saturday at 7 pm Eastern time.
11/5/07 5:54 PM
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RevSherm
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Edited: 05-Nov-07
Member Since: 04/14/2003
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kaab, can you respond without ad hominums?

you'd lose a debate before it even began

Hitler continued in his Christian beliefs until his death.


troll...do some research before you write...it really makes you look...like you don't know what you are talking about
11/5/07 5:56 PM
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RevSherm
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Edited: 05-Nov-07
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here Kaab...bet he's one of your heros now

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
11/29/07 8:57 PM
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AKharalampiev
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Edited: 29-Nov-07
Member Since: 04/14/2003
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I could quote just as many Hitlerisms that would make him appear Christian. I won't bother.

no please, by all means post them. I'm very interested in seeing them
11/30/07 12:38 PM
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Subadie
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Edited: 30-Nov-07 12:44 PM
Member Since: 10/09/2004
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There is a very interesting book called "the spear of destiny." The author makes the argument that Hitler believed that the spear that pierced Christ while on the cross had magical properties such that the possessor could not be defeated in war. Towards the end of his life, much of his efforts were put into obtaining this spear. He believed in magic and any magic, Christian or Germanic or otherwise, could benefit him Another book discussing a similar argument about the importance of myth/magic (my word) on Hitler's beliefs and actions can be found in a book by Michael Baigent - I forget the name of the book
11/30/07 12:49 PM
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Subadie
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Edited: 30-Nov-07
Member Since: 10/09/2004
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Comment 1 "nobody has been killed on the basis of atheism (logic and reason)" Comment 2 "Those things are left up to the people to decide for themselves through logic and reason." Response: What they dont teach kids today about Robespierre and the French Revolution ?
11/30/07 9:41 PM
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Subadie
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Edited: 30-Nov-07
Member Since: 10/09/2004
Posts: 888
vauge is a color ? Anyway, RevSherm provided the clear and direct, why do you need more
12/2/07 4:08 AM
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Indrek R.
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Edited: 02-Dec-07
Member Since: 07/04/2002
Posts: 1759
"For Christians, God helps to give ultimate meaning to life. Religion gives us a moral code to live by and to teach our children. Faith helps us to deal with hardship and suffering. The prospect of the afterlife gives us hope and helps us to believe that there is eventual justice in which the good are rewarded and unrepented evil held accountable. For Christians it is not the death of Christ but the resurrection that is the central doctrine. Sadomasochism doesn't even enter into it." Line by line in essence what is really wrong with Christianity from a naturalist pov - it just comes across as a form of illusion or false belief (think Nietzsche). And in the quote it is in a way actually presented as such by a believer. * "Gives you ultimate meaning". Satisfies the ultimate human need - for ultimate meaning. Yet there really is none. So religion comes across as a form of weakness - believing something not because it is true but because it is easier to live this way. This has its consequences. * "Gives us a moral code". One which works against human perfection (not that I'd advocate this point, but if, as a naturalist you think that all moral codes are at some level really on a par then this can become a problem). More realistically, the moral code is unreasonably exclusionary, interpreted way differently by different groups etc. * "Helps us to deal with hardship and suffering". All those nice motivations for having beliefs about the world again - believe what is useful not what is true. But belief doesn't seem to work this way. So self-delusion will be a big part of it. * "The prospect of afterlife". False hopes again. If you think of it, this whole thing is sadomasochistic in a way.

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