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TMA UnderGround >> Chang Tung Sheng Tai Chi


12/10/07 6:27 PM
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oblongo
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Edited: 10-Dec-07
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMZKWOaWPI
12/18/07 9:26 PM
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oblongo
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Edited: 18-Dec-07
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I'm far from an expert on tai chi. But it certainly looks different from what little I have seen.
12/21/07 9:38 PM
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oblongo
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Edited: 21-Dec-07
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Again, I really don't know that much about the art. I've it on TV a couple of times. There used to be a group that practiced in a park near where I used to live. The only difference I can put my finger on is that the tai chi in that clip is done at a faster pace than what I've seen before. But there's more to it than that. I can't quite put my finger on it. Some of the movements are different and the mechanics of the movements also seem different, if that makes any sense. Sorry about being so vague.
3/4/08 12:11 PM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Edited: 04-Mar-08
Member Since: 12/22/2007
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That is actually derived from the original Yang style and the form in that video is very,very close to the old Yang forms. Older taiji styles use the forward lean alot. It's only very, very recently that the upright posture came into vogue. Mostly because of Cheng Man Ching and wushu.
3/19/08 11:42 PM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1kl_SL19nKs&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object>
3/19/08 11:54 PM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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The above clip is Du Yu Ze, a student of Chen Fake's father. Chen Fake is the one who changed the Chen form to what you are more familiar with. This is (or is much closer to) the original form created by Chen Bu. This is also the form of Chen taiji that I learned 10+ years ago and recently picked up again. As you can see, there is significant forward lean. As far as Chang Tung Sheng's taiji, I am pretty familiar with shuai jiao as well. There is certainly a shuai jiao "flavor" to the CTS form, but I don't see any specific shuai jiao techinques. From what I watched the movements were essentially the same as the old Yang forms.
3/19/08 11:56 PM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
Member Since: 12/22/2007
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Here's Yang Cheng Fu's son performing the Yang form. Doesn't get much closer to the source than this. Also note the significant forward lean. <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zqgZp80SVoQ&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object>
3/20/08 12:08 AM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Edited: 20-Mar-08
Member Since: 12/22/2007
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And some clearer pictures of the man himself: If you've only done the more modern styles of taiji, the amount of forward leaning DOES look weird. It wasn't until the 1940-50s that people started changning the form to the more upright posture you see today. The older styles were more combat-oriented, while the modified forms (especially the 24 and 48 posture Yang forms) were done more for health and meditation, although they still have some martial usage. I also suspect the forms were modified to suit older people and to move taiji away from it's martial origins. Humans need to lean forward from the hips to engage the posterior chain (the large muscles of the back, hips, and legs) fully. So, if you look at the older style of taiji you'll notice almost all of them use the forward lean to generate power.
3/20/08 12:16 AM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Edited: 20-Mar-08
Member Since: 12/22/2007
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"Its obvious Tai Chi Chuan has as many qualities of Taoist Meditation as can fit in, this includes the head being upright/relaxed and connected to the north star. " This is another myth that is very common among internal stylists. Prior to the mid-1800s when the Chen style began being taught outside the village, the art didn't really have a name other than "Chen Family Fist" ,Chenjiagouquan. It was only later that the association with Taoism was added in. If anything, Chen taiji is based on Northern Long Fist, as there are very similar techniques in the old Chen style. Long Fist comes in a lot of brands, from Shaolin to Muslim and everything inbetween. The only true Taoist art I can think of is baguazhang, which was created by a Taoist and based on Taoist cirle-walking meditation.
3/22/08 10:04 AM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Edited: 22-Mar-08
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He did not. Yang's son only learned from his father, and I don't think Wu style even existed at that point. Both the form and those pics have significant lean. True, the HEAD is held upright, but if you think there's no lean in those examples we either need to define what we both consider "leaning". YCF is leaning forward about 45 degrees in those pics. I actually have done that form in the first vid for about 10 years, very intensively for the first 3-4, and on and off since then. I also practice Yin baguazhang from the Gong Bao Tien lineage. "Is spiraling power not the core of TCC? Is this not a taoist principle?" bagua is spiraling, taiji is more circular. It is not neccessarily a Taoist thing. Almost ALL CMA's have circular movements as their core--even the more linear styles like long fist. TCC was not founded as a Taoist art, although Taoist principles fit into it's framework very well. Bagua was, as I stated, a mix of Taoist chi gung and (most likely) a stlye known as zhangzuan--"turning palm". The Taoist influences are very clear from the name of the art itself to the various chi gung practices. Dong Hai Chuan stated that he learned circle walking chi gung and the other chi gung forms in the system from Taoist priests. Most early BGZ practicioners were already skilled at other martial arts. Yin Fu was a long fist practicioner and Cheng (the "shuai jiao guy") was, well, a shuai jiao master. Just curious, do you actually study any internal MA? If so, what kind?
3/22/08 7:37 PM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Edited: 22-Mar-08
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"But not Yin Fu's Lohan or Cheng's Shuai Chiao? Even turning palm may have had origins in other styles, I don't think it matters much, its obvious the circle walking came from Taoism as well as other key aspects. " Of course. I should have clarified, BGZ is unique in that it is (ideally) adapted to the student's attributes and/or skills. Yin Fu's BGZ looks very different from Cheng's, the Sun style is very different from both, etc. All are legit, they just emphasize different aspects of the whole art. I usually explain BGZ as a framework that fits over a student's existing skills. "If you are only comparing outwards movements to other arts even Baguazhang has movements that can be found in other arts, a punch, a kick etc. Are those Taoist in nature? " No. The Taoist chi gung of BGZ and the fact that it's founder named it "Eight Trigram Palm" AND the fact the it's movements and various forms are deeply entertwined with Taoist alchemy and energy work do. "Hmmm. I guess you could see it that way if you only studied Cha'ngs system of Tai Chi Chuan(I'm not sure the transmission was that good, mine certainly wasn't though its clear Cha'ng had it. As an example he took a sword form to his grave because he never found a worthy student or so I've heard) or look only at the outward appearance. " I have never studied Changs system. I have only studied Yang and mostly old Chen style, as I stated. I'm not sure where you get this stuff, but it seems most of your knowledge is book learnin' rather than actual experience. You certainly can't even begin to comment on BGZ if you haven't done it. It is much more complex in terms of angles, sprialing, etc. than either Yang or Chen style taiji. Taiji IS circular in nature, whaterver your opinion may be. Mine is based in the actual history of the art, not ideas about "spiraling earth energy".
3/23/08 9:54 AM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Edited: 26-Mar-08 03:32 PM
Member Since: 12/22/2007
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edited for my general dickheadedness
3/25/08 9:07 PM
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yusul
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
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ttt for the videos. pls don't turn it into a c grade flamewar like on the silly traditional forums where everyone contemplates their own navel.
3/31/08 9:36 PM
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groundfighter2000
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Edited: 31-Mar-08
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ttt
5/3/09 2:45 AM
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dennis5
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ttt

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