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Weapons UnderGround >> .45 vs 10mm


12/26/07 11:12 AM
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Dark Knight
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Edited: 26-Dec-07
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Great rounds, I own 2 .45's. Any advantage to the 10mm other than it would be great for hunting? The 40 is a cut down 10, same size so the thought of light power 10mm is a 40. It looks like the 10mm has power close to the .41.
12/27/07 9:58 PM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 27-Dec-07
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Depends on your state, in mine (Indiana), the 10mm isn't legal for deer hunting. The original .40 was the 10mm, it was developed for the FBI as a new sidearm. They determined it had too much recoil for follow up shots, so they came out with the infamous "FBI load" which greatly reduced the amount of powder in the case. A few years later, Smith and wesson said "why don't we just chop that case down to hold the amount of powder it's actually using?" and called it the .40S&W. Fast forward a few years and it's one of the more popular rounds in Law enforcement today. While the 10mm does have pretty good thump to it, it's very similar to the .41 mag. The ammo is virtually non existant and expensive as hell. If you don't reload, you won't shoot it much. Your follow up shots will be slow as hell with full power loads and overpenetration with those full power loads is a rela concern; if you load it light, you might as well carry a .40 S&W and not have to worry about making sure your light loads are consistant. just my $0.02
12/29/07 8:13 PM
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HarryLime
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Edited: 29-Dec-07 08:20 PM
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.45 is better for self-defense -- less blast/flash, quicker follow up shots, less wear on the gun. .357 & .44 are just as good or better for hunting. I had a Glock 20 for a while. It was fun to shoot, but ammo was expensive and the only HP bullets designed for 10mm are from 20 years ago -- silvertips, hyrdrashoks, XTPs. 10mm won't really do anything that a good modern 9/40/45 JHP can do.
3/23/08 12:21 PM
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HarryLime
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Edited: 23-Mar-08
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.400 Corbon is harder to find than 10mm .357 sig doesn't really out-perform 9mm +p . . . it never made much sense to me.
3/24/08 12:02 AM
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k0ntr0l
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
Member Since: 07/22/2002
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I'd vote for 45... its the only handgun round I use... I have shot easily 100K+ rounds of it... factory loads are cheap(well, were...) and readily accessable.... Factory ammunition isn't nearly as good as hand loads though--- I can cut ~2" off my 25 yard spread with a proper handload.... along with reduce recoil/flip... That makes followups a breeze-- and flash is almost non-existant with the proper powders/charges... I never understood the logic of a 10mm...
3/24/08 12:35 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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HarryLime: I heard much differently, that the .357 does out perform the .40 cal in a lot of ways... And generally the .40 cal out performs the 9mm, even the nice +p+
3/24/08 2:48 PM
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ReCoSys
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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No need to get a 10, just stick with your .45s, unless you're really into reloading and like less conventional calibers.
3/24/08 9:19 PM
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HarryLime
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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"HarryLime: I heard much differently," From what sources? All terminal ballistic testing I've seen with premium bullets (Golddots, HST, Rangers) shows similar penetration and expansion across caliber for 9mm/357sig/40s&w. They're all engineered to expand consistently and meet the FBI benchmarks of 12-14 inches penetration of ballistic gelatin through common barriers (denim, drywall, etc). 40 is slightly larger, but by a very small margin. 357sig is slightly faster, but with 125gr bullets there is not much difference in penetration. If ATK and Winchester were to develop 145- 150gr JHP for 357sig it might live up to the hype.
3/24/08 9:31 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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Harry: What about the footpounds of force behind it?
3/24/08 9:48 PM
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HarryLime
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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Energy numbers are more meaningful for marketing than terminal performance (according to ballistics experts like Dr Gary Roberts and David Difabio/Ammolab). Energy doesn't hurt people. It will not create a larger or deeper wound than the bullet itself. Well engineered 124-127gr 9mm expand and penetrate just as reliably as 125gr 357sig. If you have a high energy load that is also very dense, then you will get very deep penetration . . . like 180-200gr 10mm. But the sectional density is probably more important than velocity for penetration of living tissue. 147gr 9mm typically penetrate 2-4" deeper than 125gr in ballistic gelatin. 357sig may do slightly better against hard barriers like sheet metal, but it's a small incremental advantage.
3/24/08 10:07 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 24-Mar-08 10:15 PM
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HarryLime: Maybe I'm call confused. By why then can a .308 Nato round have so much more wounding power than a .38 pistol round? How can a .357 have more power than a .38 round? (yes, I know that the .357 and the .38 are the same calibre)
3/24/08 10:58 PM
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HarryLime
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Edited: 24-Mar-08 11:06 PM
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The difference between 357sig and 9mm is only 100-150fps. The difference in the temporal stretch cavity is not significant enough to cause injury. .308 has more than twice the energy of most pistol rounds -- the best .308 projectiles are engineered make use of the energy. They will yaw and fragment causing truly massive internal injuries. No pistol round in service caliber handguns will work like 308 -- they do not have sufficient energy and are not designed to yaw/fragment. Momentum is likely a better measure of the forces produced on target than kinetic energy: Winchester Ranger 127gr 9mm @ 1280fps = 23ft/lbs Winchester Ranger 125gr 357sig @ 1350fps = 24ft/lbs Winchester Ranger 165gr 40s/w @ 1165fps = 27ft/lbs Hornady AMAX 158gr 308WIN @2700fps = 64ft/lbs *edited for clarity.
3/24/08 11:15 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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HarryLime: Interesting, I knew about the yaw and tumble of spitzer rounds... I just wanted to see your backing behind your points. So from the point you are making, the grain really makes the difference. That having a .357 sig in around 150grain like you said, we'd get better performance out of it? ...I'll have to research, since I thought the next big thing really was the necked pistol rounds (not like it wasn't around with the Tokarev, but whatever)
3/25/08 12:07 AM
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HarryLime
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
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Yeah, I think 357sig would be pretty cool with heavier bullets, but no one makes them. It would still be kind of a special purpose round, possibly useful for rural LEO or highway patrol . . . I think you would have to anticipant very long range pistol shooting and/or lots of metal barriers to really want to carry the sig.
3/25/08 7:10 AM
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Dark Knight
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
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"How can a .357 have more power than a .38 round?" When you look at certain rounds you also have to look at the history of them. The 38spl and 44 spl were developed at the end of the black powder era. then early in the smokeless powder years you needed more powder than you do with modern powders. If you open the shell of a 38 or 44 (30-06) and other older rounds) you can see that the shell is only about half full of powder. The 38 and 44's can be loaded to magnum levels, but the guns wouldnt be able to handle the pressures (Today might, but older ones cant) So when the magnums were developed the cases were made a little longer so you couldnt put them in the wrong gun. The 454 is a 45long colt with more powder. It is longer so you dont run it through a 45LC gun, but you can fire 45LC's in a 454. (Rugers can handle the pressure, but most cannot) The 9mm is more of a modern round so it is the same size as a 38 (except weight) but performs at higher pressures. When you look at the 30-06 it was a bullet deveoped in 1906 (30 cal, 1906 = 30-06) Today you dont need that much case, so other 30 cal bullets were developed that perform better.
3/26/08 5:36 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
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But what does 'perform better' mean exactly? There still seem to be a lot of people who talk about kinetic energy vs Momentum. By simple understanding of physics, I'd rather have a much faster round than a slower, fatter round.
3/26/08 8:28 PM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
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Perform better means to do more damage in a fleshy target. The argument between the two schools of thought focuses on poorly understood phsycis concepts (using kinetic energy for impact calculations doesn't work. Engineering schools use momentum calculations instead as it better mirrors real world results). This is becuase kinetic energy calculations only work for perfectly elastic collisions (think billiard balls), real collisions are almost never elastic, especially in gun shots when the bullet leaves a hole and many times doens't exit the body. Momentum conservaiton laws allow you understand the forces and velocities involved much better. The fact is that medical examiners can't tell the difference between bullet wounds from the various major SD calibers (9mm, 40, 45, 357 mag, 357 sig). In fact, unless a bullet is recovered, many times they can't tell what the person was shot with at all. What then should be a deciding factor on what round to use? Recoil control and speed of follow up shots, cost of and avalaiblity of ammunition, and comfort. Find a round that you can get anywhere cheaply, and practice with it a lot.
3/26/08 8:46 PM
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HarryLime
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Edited: 26-Mar-08 11:01 PM
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Agree with Skpotamus I would only add that bullet construction matters much more than energy, momentum or caliber. You can shoot someone with the most powerful 10mm or 357sig load available to you and still have poor performance. If the projectile is not engineered to make use of the energy the resulting wound would likely be inferior to a well designed subsonic 9mm.
3/26/08 9:28 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
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What then should be a deciding factor on what round to use? Recoil control and speed of follow up shots, cost of and avalaiblity of ammunition, and comfort. Interesting. Honestly, I'm just interested in a 9mm for target shooting, that's it.
3/26/08 11:37 PM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
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Harry, I agree about the bullet design, I forgot to include that in my post. Any modern bullet design should be perfectly sufficient to punch a hole in somehting, that said, evena FMJ or lead round nose will punch a hole in something. An expanded 9mm still doesn't reach some ridiculous proportion, the wound channel is still going to be small. The real key to using a handgun for self defense is to put the rounds where they will do the most damage, and keep putting them there until the bad guy stops trying to kill you. Kai, I used to think that way, then a buddy of mine (my first NRA training counselor) pointed out that our military uses a 9mm, as does all of Europe (military and police), and a few friends they knew in SA (which also issues 9mm's). The police depts that get into the most shootings all seem to be gravitating towards higher round count. He also showed me the scar on his abdomen from the 7.62x51mm (308) that someoen shot him with during his service years. A rifle round isn't necessarily guaranteed to put someone down and they are much more powerful than handgun rounds. He also pointed to FBI statistics that showed that in the US, .22caliber rounds resulted in the most fatalities. Hell, I once saw a guy who'd been shot by a 12 gauge slug at close range in the chest in a hunting accident. He survived. Bullets punch holes in things. The difference in the size of the hole for the big SD rounds: .38spl/.357magnum = 9mm .40 = 10mm .45 = 11.25mm One or two millimeter's worth of difference in a hole in a human body isn't gonna make a difference. A good analogy is a knife. Does it make a big difference if my blade is 9mm's wide or 10mm's? No. The way you put someone down with it is where you put the knife. Hope this is somewhat clear, it's been a long day :o)
3/27/08 12:19 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 27-Mar-08
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Skpot: So basically, the ideas about round size, velocity is all hype? I thought that the reasoning behind using the 9mm for NATO was more of a matter of economy of scale and such.
3/27/08 1:32 AM
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k0ntr0l
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Edited: 27-Mar-08
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9mm is used because of the cheap production costs... hell, look at consumer ammunition prices 9mm is half the cost of 45... Less Lead, less powder, etc... That knife analogy doesn't workd bud~~ As far as "a millimeter" being the only difference between a 40 and a 45?--- you also have to look at the powder charge behind it, along with the grain difference in bullets--- but as was stated- bullet design is the ultimate equalizer--- frangable (while in some circles is questionable) ammunition, hollow points, etc, all essentially trap the force inside the target through expansion/ fragmentation... Regardless, in a self-defense situation, you want MINIMAL penetrance--- bullet frags flying through a window after you catch a shallow shot (through a zombie's arm for example) I'd get into the physics of the expansion, penetrance, etc,and differences between rounds, but honestly I don't feel that getting out my Projectile ballistics notebooks (from my last semester's research project) would bring much more to the table other than Crazy effective round at short distance for self defense?--- Think about a Nylon barstock bullet--- the velocity is ridiculous (chrono'd at 3100-3300fps from ~25 rounds that I got ahold of in .45), this is the realm of high-powered rifles power factor --- they enter and stop--- no over-penetrance- has a hard time going far through drywall... Worried about it going through clothing?--- quick synopsys of my setup to test this--- The nylon bullets went through a level 2A panel at 7 yards, through 2 inches of pig-skin from the butcher, which was behind the vest, making contact with it. 3 feet ehind the slab of skin was a "model wall" which was 2 pieces of .5inch drywall seperated by a space of 4 inches--- after going through the vest and skin, the nylon bullets penetrated through the first sheet of drywall only this was repeated using both the 2A panel, and various layers of "normal" cloth (denim, cotton, etc)--- FMJ lead 45 rounds penetrated all layers and both walls if the trauma panel wasn't used--- trauma panel stopped the lead bullets--- with "minimal" damage to the pig-flesh =) It's late--- lets hope that was halfway coherent and semi-interesting =) It was a fun experiment... my ballistics professor was impressed with the idea of nylon bullets for self defense... Quoting that 22's are the cause of most fatalities must be taken with a grain of salt-- 22's are easily the most widly avaiable firearm caliber... so of course the numbers will skew it that way--- a better way to look at it would be death per assault- taking into consideration the numbers of rounds fired--- there is a documented case of a man being shot 19? times in the head with a 22 and living... If all a person is looking for is personal defense- if they honestly need more than~10 rounds?-- they're in over their head anyway... a 17round mag is a bit excessive for PD... I carry a spare mag in case of malfunction, but that's beside the point--- hell, what was my point?
3/27/08 1:34 AM
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HarryLime
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Edited: 27-Mar-08
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Skpotmus -- I agree that the wounds from handguns are generally small and that any modern JHP will do. I do believe there are some lousy high velocity loads where JHP over- expand or fall apart because they lack the sectional density to make an effective wound.
3/27/08 3:02 AM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 27-Mar-08
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The knife analogy is pretty close actually. Medical examiners can't tell the difference in a wound track between the different handgun calibers. So where's the big difference between the .40 & .45, or a 9mm and a 45? The incapacitating factors of handgun wounds are blood loss, organ damage, and psychological trauma. Blood loss takes time, even a severed artery takes a while for a person to bleed out, leaving them able to fight. Psychological trauma varies from person to person, what makes one person piss themselves makes another fight even harder, so the main incapacitating factor of any wound is organ damage. Modern SD rounds are designed to meet the FBI penetration criteria so they get essentially the same penetration, the difference between the two is basically caliber. Modern hollowpoints don't make one round better than another, they just make a small hole slightly larger. The reason the FBI came up with their numbers for penetration is that the main organs that put a person out of the fight (heart, brain) are protected by the body's tissue and bone. The model they developed gets you enough penetration to get to those organs, but not typcially much more, limiting over penetration issues. Dig around and you'll find many stories of people taking ridiculous amounts of damage and still fighting. I recall an Ohio(?) LEO who was involved in a shooting, he emptied his 45 into his attacker, who fired one .22 cal at the officer, killing him on the scene. Again, people have been shot with things far superior to handguns and lived, even continued fighting. The only way to end a fight is to put rounds where they can do the most damage, and put as many there as you can. If you think that any number of rounds is too much, then you've never done a FoF class.
3/27/08 8:10 PM
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k0ntr0l
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Edited: 27-Mar-08
Member Since: 07/22/2002
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FoF? I won't argue projectile ballistics, its fruitless and has two camps of beliefs- Caliber matters, or caliber doesnt matter. I'm in the "caliber matters" camp. you, apparently, are not, and that's fine, I'll hold to my "unfounded" beliefs that my 45 will stop someone better than a 9. as far as "never having too many rounds"-- Once again- I said for --personal-- defense, not LEO work. I won't be putting myself in harms way on a daily basis against possibly multiple attackers. The way I see it, is that if I need more than my 10 rounds, i'm screwed regardless.

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