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Wrestling UnderGround >> Wrestlers and Catch Wrestling


9/22/09 10:57 PM
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KidJustice
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 I went to a Scientific Wrestling Audit (2007) held by Jake Shannon and audited by Dick Cardinal.

It was well worth the money and I learned a great deal from Mr. Cardinal (who was still strong for his age, it suprised me) and I have always liked the way that Jake treats people. Jake has never acted like a bad ass or claimed he was the long lost son of Farmer Burns. He is just a very smart guy who invested his time and money into bringing old school wrestling back into the limelight.

I wrestle with guys like Dan St. John, Malcom Havens and other awesome wrestlers here in Colorado. They are all sub grapplers who love to wrestle hard and learn submissions.

Jake in my opinion is nice guy with a good product (he is also very tough on the mat)
9/23/09 9:23 AM
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de braco
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Jake didn't bring old school wrestling back into the limelight, the laoh release did that,jake just takes credit.
9/23/09 10:37 AM
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supersaiyan
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hmmm... so apparently ScienficWrestling came after Tony's Catchwrestle then ?
9/23/09 10:55 AM
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e. kaye
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 Is that a rhetorical question?
9/23/09 11:16 AM
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de braco
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Matt and Jake are both angry offspring of the laoh. Jake used to be the most rabid cecchine supporter on the internets.
9/23/09 5:45 PM
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KidJustice
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de braco - Jake didn't bring old school wrestling back into the limelight, the laoh release did that,jake just takes credit.
Maybe to you, but I got into it because of jakes website. So you can claim that he did nothing, but I never heard of "LAOH"....


 
9/23/09 6:09 PM
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supersaiyan
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supersaiyan - hmmm... so apparently ScienficWrestling came after Tony's Catchwrestle then ?



lol

well i can say for SURE that i knew of Tony long before i stumbled onto Jake Shannon...if anything it seemed like competition to discredit Tony in every way possible.
9/23/09 6:10 PM
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e. kaye
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 Correct.
9/23/09 9:09 PM
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de braco
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KidJustice - 
de braco - Jake didn't bring old school wrestling back into the limelight, the laoh release did that,jake just takes credit.
Maybe to you, but I got into it because of jakes website. So you can claim that he did nothing, but I never heard of "LAOH"....


 

Youv'e been here since 2002 and never heard of laoh? That and Sperrys vale tudo was all everyone talked about.
9/23/09 11:29 PM
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KidJustice
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de braco - 
KidJustice - 
de braco - Jake didn't bring old school wrestling back into the limelight, the laoh release did that,jake just takes credit.
Maybe to you, but I got into it because of jakes website. So you can claim that he did nothing, but I never heard of "LAOH"....


 

Youv'e been here since 2002 and never heard of laoh? That and Sperrys vale tudo was all everyone talked about.
I really never did. Care to do a brief description? I'm not knocking what you said I'm just not knowledgeable about it. I don't usually get involved in these types of arguments. I train to get better and If someone can teach me something I'm open to it...
 
9/24/09 12:03 PM
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de braco
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Edited: 09/27/09 7:45 PM
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I didn't infer Jake has done nothing. The information in the Billy Robinson set was incredible, so was the Dick Cardinal dvd. The only complaint was the production value(low) of the dvd's and the certification is nonsense. He also refuses to aknowledge Cecchines role in bringing cacc back to forefont. Since his falling out with Cecchine his attacks have bordered on zealotry.
9/24/09 5:38 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Edited: 09/25/09 3:11 AM
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de braco is correct. And the term "falling out' is actually being too kind to Jake Shannon. He started out as Tony Cecchine's STUDENT in catch wrestling, and then decided that there was money to be made in this great LOST ART - and decided to cash in.

Which is okay, except his business plan included the destruction of Cecchine's credibility as the number one priority, and character assasination was the tactic used again and again by Shannon on numerous website forums as part of the strategy to achieve that goal, including right here at UG.

For God's sake, the guy had the audacity to attack LOU THESZ'S credibility as a catch wrestler because Lou endorsed Tony! With slander and innuendo about Thesz's motives, and his actual ability as a catch wrestler.

Can you imagine? Jake Shannon trying to discredit Lou Thesz, of all people, in order to make a buck! What a sorry state of affairs.

And some of his videos ARE poor quality dvds. Thank God I made a copy of the SUBMISSION MASTER vid I bought from him as soon as I received it, since the 2 disc original dvd set I purchased stopped playing soon thereafter.

To his credit though, and to be fair, the fact that he has gotten Fugiwara, Cardinal, Robinson, and Barnett on dvd teaching catch wrestling is a great thing, as well as the seminars he's promoted with these men.

But that's as far as it goes.
9/27/09 6:36 PM
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workman43113
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Edited: 09/27/09 6:38 PM
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Here's my opinion for what it's worth both guy's are legit and have a legitimate product. That being said as an idividual I find it beneficial to look past the petty nonsense and attacks and benefit from both. There was an interview on the Scientific Wrestling site where Billy Robinson said that he thought the wigan guy's including himself and Karl Gotch were better wrestlers than Lou and the Americans. Now as much as I like Billy Robinson you need look no further than videos of there old matches (albeit works)if you have any experience in wrestling and compare between, Robinson, Gotch, Thesz it is clear that Thesz is a much smoother athletic wrestler than both Karl Gotch, and Robinson. And no further than history books to see the results of the best Americans v.s. the best European guys. Just my .02

Any rate I find both styles similar and equally effective
9/27/09 6:44 PM
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PoundforPound
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Edited: 09/27/09 6:43 PM
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Lou Thesz learned his wrestling from 3 very good sources: Greek Olympian George Tragos, Ed "Strangler" Lewis, and Ad Santel.
9/27/09 8:01 PM
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de braco
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If you can find some of Thesz's "matches" against good wrestlers in the early fifties, like workman said,it's apparent he was a very good wrestler. I like how jake always brings up he never wanted to gym shoots with guys who were on a much lower level of exposure in pro wrestling.Thesz was making 400,000+ a year in early fifties when the average per captia income was 6000+-, why in the hell would he risk the bad publicity of possibly loosing to a very tough opponent Like Dick Cardinal and risk loosing any of that earning potential? It boggles the mind how jake uses this to make his point that Lou was only average at best.
9/27/09 8:03 PM
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supersaiyan
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workman43113 - Here's my opinion for what it's worth both guy's are legit and have a legitimate product. That being said as an idividual I find it beneficial to look past the petty nonsense and attacks and benefit from both. There was an interview on the Scientific Wrestling site where Billy Robinson said that he thought the wigan guy's including himself and Karl Gotch were better wrestlers than Lou and the Americans. Now as much as I like Billy Robinson you need look no further than videos of there old matches (albeit works)if you have any experience in wrestling and compare between, Robinson, Gotch, Thesz it is clear that Thesz is a much smoother athletic wrestler than both Karl Gotch, and Robinson. And no further than history books to see the results of the best Americans v.s. the best European guys. Just my .02

Any rate I find both styles similar and equally effective



agreed...i did noticed and quite EVIDENTLY that gotch and robinsons style is very stiff and robotic in nature as well.

its like trying to watch Batista vs Steven Regal and saying ..."gee man NOW THIS IS A GOOD MATCH between 2 skilled grapplers" lol
9/27/09 8:04 PM
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KidJustice
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 Dick Cardinal is a tough guy and a very cool old man. I wish someone would sit down with him and get his story on paper before he is gone. He had a ton of great stories when I talked to him.
9/27/09 8:12 PM
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de braco
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KidJustice -  Dick Cardinal is a tough guy and a very cool old man. I wish someone would sit down with him and get his story on paper before he is gone. He had a ton of great stories when I talked to him.


Dick Cardinal is a living national treasure of american sporting culture that has passed and will probably never come again. It's why i said he should do a set of high quality dvds to preserve his knowledge for future generations.
9/27/09 8:17 PM
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PoundforPound
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That's not a bad idea. Get him to think over what he feels is a good training progression, get it written down and organised, then film it.
9/27/09 8:19 PM
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BeerMuscles
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I wish Dick Cardinal, Billy Wicks, Billy Robinson and maybe a Japanese source such as Suzuki or Funaki would ALL release in-depth sets. Everyone's game is different and it would be great to see the different perspectives on the art.
9/27/09 8:31 PM
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de braco
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A Billy Robinson/Dick Cardinal set from WMA or even Panther/Century would be terrific.
9/27/09 8:53 PM
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PoundforPound
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Edited: 09/27/09 8:54 PM
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Oooh, I forgot about Billy Wicks. A comprehensive set from him would kick ass too.

He says he trained under Henry Kolln who learned from the man himself, Farmer Burns.
9/28/09 2:01 AM
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Victor Parlati
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workman43113 - Here's my opinion for what it's worth both guy's are legit and have a legitimate product. That being said as an idividual I find it beneficial to look past the petty nonsense and attacks and benefit from both. There was an interview on the Scientific Wrestling site where Billy Robinson said that he thought the wigan guy's including himself and Karl Gotch were better wrestlers than Lou and the Americans. Now as much as I like Billy Robinson you need look no further than videos of there old matches (albeit works)if you have any experience in wrestling and compare between, Robinson, Gotch, Thesz it is clear that Thesz is a much smoother athletic wrestler than both Karl Gotch, and Robinson. And no further than history books to see the results of the best Americans v.s. the best European guys. Just my .02

Any rate I find both styles similar and equally effective



***EXCELLENT POST, workman.
9/28/09 10:57 AM
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scuffler
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Edited: 09/28/09 11:05 AM
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Although I do and always have agreed that the American brand was a touch better than the European brand, Verne Gagne did once say that Billy Robinson was ,in his opinion, a better submissions guy than any of the Americans he had worked with.

Thank you for the kind thoughts P4P and Victor. It does mean a lot.
9/28/09 11:43 AM
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de braco
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Thesz also said the wigan guys knew more submissions

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