UnderGround Forums
 

Wrestling UnderGround >> Wrestlers and Catch Wrestling


2/6/10 11:08 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 483
Look at Billy Robinsons dvd's.He's forgotten more about submission style grappling than most of us will ever know.
2/7/10 8:22 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2246
That's not answering the question.
2/7/10 12:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 484
It's Robinsons freestyle competition record,demonstrated ability,Wigan pedigree and coaching record that makes me think he knows what he's talking about.Cecchine has good abilitys too.
2/7/10 10:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mr Mike from NC
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/07
Posts: 249
Coach Bob Anderson has a 3 DVD set out called Submission Grappling and, doesn't come with the pro wrestling/my ctach is best baggage that some heretofore mentioned guys have. Has anyone ever seen these DVDs? How do they compare to the other videos out there?
2/8/10 2:34 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2247
ok, but what is it about them? technical knowledge? understanding of principles?
2/8/10 9:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 486
technical knowledge of wrestling and mastery of principles of leverage
2/8/10 4:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Victor Parlati
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/08/10 4:36 PM
Member Since: 5/16/04
Posts: 1226
Again:

Catch wrestling needs to get past all the lies, the hype, and the lineage wars....for example...for all his GOOD works (bringing us dvd's and seminars by people like Billy Robinson, Josh Barnett, Yoshiaki Fugiwara, Dick Cardinal)....

Jake Shannon HAS BEEN GUILTY since day one of trying to falsify his own catch credentials (after a 4 hour seminar in Chicago with Tony Cecchine he went back to California and tried to market hiself as a catch wrestling guru)....

and LIED REPEATEDLY about Tony Cecchine (as well enormous attempts at character assasination) - in order to eliminate Cecchine as a rival in the catch wrestling seminar/dvd business...

he (Shannon) crashed Bill Cogwell's GROUND FIGHTING website TWICE and tried to blame it on Cecchine - immediately before he (Shannon) managed to get Kirik to let him be the lead moderator for a catch forum here on mma.tv...

so he then starts a catch forum here and ruthlessly tries to run anybody and everybody off it (deletions/edits of their posts and threads)....if they called him out about HIS LIES ABOUT CECCHINE AND HIS ATTEMPTS TO DISCREDIT THE GREAT LOU THESZ...

- because Lou endorsed Cecchine as a legit catch wrestler and "hooker" (submission expert)....

and now the latest with Kris from Canada (I smelled that out from day one because I always knew - from back in the 1960's - that Edouard Carpentier was NOT a legit catch submission guy - but an acrobatic performer)....

AND ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN...

we now have Tony Cecchine and some guys connected to Tony (Jeff G) trying to say that the Wigan/Karl Gotch/Fugiwara/Billy Robinson connection is mainly just a bunch of show holds - and not "real" catch hooking.

AND THIS IS ALSO BULLSHIT...

and I'm sorry that Tony - who I've always admired and defended - is engaged in this...

BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS that Kris from Canada and the vids on youtube connected to the Quebec Toehold Club - these guys are damn good catch submission guys...

as is Tony Cecchine, CLEARLY...as is Yoshiaki Fugiwara (Karl Gotch's top student)...and BIlly Robinosn is CLEARLY now (since the passing of Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch)....

Billy is clearly now the WORLD'S FOREMOST AUTHORITY ON CATCH AS CATCH CAN WERSTLING...

and if you don't believe that then ask no less than Kazushi Sakuraba and Josh Barnett what they think about Billy Robinson - and Josh is also very familiar with Cecchine's LOST ART OF HOOKING SERIES

- and Josh praised it and Tony many times on many website forums, including the UG)...

and Tony Cecchine, while not being perhaps at the same level as a Billy Robinson - is still CLEARLY one of THE VERY BEST catch wrestlers/instructors in the world - having learned from Stanley Radwan AND learning some things from Lou Thesz himself back about 1999....

AND DOING AN ENORMOUS SERVICE to catch as catch can with his LAOH series - and many of his other vids, seminars, etc.

and guys like Jake Shannon need to be exposed and confronted when he lies and bullies (which has been often)...and praised when he markets a catch wrestlng vid BY PEOPLE OHTER THAN HIMSELF...

and when he sponsors seminars by people like Billy Robinson, Fugiwara, Barnett, Cardinal, etc.

and forget about trying to sell catch "certifications" (hey pal, if it's not Billy Robinson doing it - in terms of the people you now associate with - then STFU)....

and the rest of us need to stop worrying about credentials and start paying attention to the ACTUAL CATCH WRESTLING ITSELF...

and give credit where it's due...hell....even some of Matt Furey's stuff is pretty good....not much of his overpriced stuff - but some of it.

And get past all the bullshit, the lies, the marketing schemes, the lineage wars, and the hype.

JUST CONCENTRATE ON THE WRESTLNG: if it's good, then it doesn't matter where it comes from - or who taught the guy dong it....

and if it's bad - then expose it.

That's all.
2/8/10 5:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 487
The thing is Kris did exactly what Jake accused Cecchine of doing and used to discredit him. Learning cacc from videos. Watch Lou Thesz's interview tape and see what he says about Carpentiers ability as a legit wrestler.Kris should tell the whole truth.Who cares if he learned from watching Cecchine,Fujiwara,Aso,Schalles videos.Demonstrated skill should be what counts,but as long as he keeps up the bs he looks bad. His Carpentier story is clearly bullshit.The dates don't match,claiming he was already a 3rd dan in judo and master of sambo when he started to learn from carpentier in 96 and was blown away by his techniques,which were even better than his advanded judo and sambo knowledge.When in fact, he was just a green belt in 99,three years after his supposed enlightment.
2/9/10 11:57 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
TommyRyan44
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/30/07
Posts: 71
I just wish Cecchine would take a page out of Kris's book and post video of his guys rolling or have his students compete more. Even if they lost, if they made a good showing against bjj blacks it would be hard to discredit them.
2/9/10 2:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Victor Parlati
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/16/04
Posts: 1231
de braco - The thing is Kris did exactly what Jake accused Cecchine of doing and used to discredit him. Learning cacc from videos. Watch Lou Thesz's interview tape and see what he says about Carpentiers ability as a legit wrestler.Kris should tell the whole truth.Who cares if he learned from watching Cecchine,Fujiwara,Aso,Schalles videos.Demonstrated skill should be what counts,but as long as he keeps up the bs he looks bad. His Carpentier story is clearly bullshit.The dates don't match,claiming he was already a 3rd dan in judo and master of sambo when he started to learn from carpentier in 96 and was blown away by his techniques,which were even better than his advanded judo and sambo knowledge.When in fact, he was just a green belt in 99,three years after his supposed enlightment.



***THESE ARE ALL...legitimate points you make, de braco.

I always knew that Carpentier was just a performer, and Kris is now looking REALLY foolish. And needless to say, so is Jake Shannon.

But the BIGGER POINT is that everyone interested in cacc should STOP falsifying their backgrounds and pull together - and don't be ashamed to say that you've learned from vids...

because there have been so few oldtime catch submission guys around - so naturally taking a shotgun approach and trying to learn form everything and everyone that's out there is not only the best way - but for the GREAT MAJORITY of people interested in cacc - the only way.

And let your wrestling do your talking for you. Let your wrestling be your credentials.
2/9/10 5:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
KidJustice
175 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/15/02
Posts: 12254
Victor Parlati
 "And let your wrestling do your talking for you. Let your wrestling be your credentials".
2/9/10 7:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2267
The politics are a reason I'm less interested in catch. I always like Tony's stuff because he puts out great video instruction, but I also prefer to just say I do BJJ and incorporate what I learn as it fits.
2/9/10 8:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 488
The politics are BS.I don't have a dog in the fight,the only reason i harp on the Carpentier thing is it's the same thing Jake used to destroy Cecchine and smear Thesz by association.Tony does have excellent instructionals.You should take a look at Robinsons war set,it's top shelf.
2/14/10 2:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Victor Parlati
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/16/04
Posts: 1237
de braco - The politics are BS.I don't have a dog in the fight,the only reason i harp on the Carpentier thing is it's the same thing Jake used to destroy Cecchine and smear Thesz by association.Tony does have excellent instructionals.You should take a look at Robinsons war set,it's top shelf.


***NO DOUBT that chickens are rightfully coming home to roust with Jake Shannon's "lie and then smear by association" tactics.

And Shannon deserves every once of criticism and ridicule he's now getting.

And then, after awhile...let's get over it and back to catch wrestling. The B.S. politics has to stop.
2/16/10 10:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
proteinwisdom
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/31/10
Posts: 6
Victor --

Call it nonsense all you want, but the truth is the truth: The stuff taught to UWFi guys was pro wrestling working holds. If those holds are now being used in legit matches, that doesn't mean the holds have changed -- only the context.

Also, Tony has nothing to do with anything I write, other than he's taught me a lot about how to spot works. But with the UWFi stuff, I don't have to do even that -- we KNOW those are worked matches.

No one is saying Robinson or Gotch aren't hookers. What I am telling you is that Robinson and Gotch (and Thesz!) were coaching pro wrestlers to wrestle pro. They weren't teaching hooks because hooks aren't used in pro wrestling.

I'm further saying that nowhere on film do you see Gotch or Robinson hooking or showing hooks. If you find some examples, by all means, send the clips my way. So far, I see working holds -- which is not at all surprising to me, as that's what they spent years teaching.

Again, these holds can work -- and they have. But they aren't the hooks Tony teaches.

But don't take my word for it. Instead, listen to Lou Thesz, who answers a question in 2000 about shootfighting and the UWFi:

"First, I do not keep up with the shoot fighting. I found it to be void of wrestling and skill and more brute strength with very little if any "sport" about it.

"UWFI started with a great ide[a]s and good talent, but eventually gave in to the stupidity of performance (which incidentally was their undoing). I have no idea as to the ratio of performance and cometition in the matches. I did lots of coaching and was a spokesperson for [the] new sport as well as lending the old championship belt to the equation. When the side show started, I dropped out with the belt. AS nice a guy as Vader is, I just couldn't tolerate him in the belt."

[...]

"By the time I had the time to coach someone, the need for such knowledge [of hooking] no longer existed in professional wrestling. I am doing some seminars now when I can, but I never gave anyone the attention George Tragos gave me. However, noone ever wanted the knowledge enough to work for it. A wrestler must be pretty profecient to even begin training and learning the hooks. Writing Hooker made me realize how wonderful a gift I was given - or at least allowed to work for.

"Happy you are enjoying the book. I had a great time doing it. It is the closest I can get to doing it all again."

http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000155
2/16/10 5:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Victor Parlati
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/16/10 5:14 PM
Member Since: 5/16/04
Posts: 1240
"Call it nonsense all you want, but the truth is the truth: The stuff taught to UWFi guys was pro wrestling working holds"....

................

***NO, THAT'S NOT THE TRUTH.

Some showholds? Of course. It's pro wrestling.

But if you've looked at Yoshiaki Fugiwara's vids CAREFULLY...and much more than once....and if you take the material to the mat...

YOU'LL FIND THAT THE OVERWHELMNG MAJORITY of Fugiwara's (KARL GOTCH'S) material is REAL catch wrestling...

and your continued attempts to deny that in order to make the argument that "American" catch is the only real deal is pitiful.

Give it up before you hurt Tony Cecchine's reputation even more - since he's obviously already suffered more than enough lies, false attempts at character assasination, and unnecessary criticism.

His stuff also contains some low percnetage moves. So what?

Overall: his catch is excellent....as is Billy Robinson's stuff...as is Fugiwara's.

You're really WAAAY out of line.
2/16/10 5:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
voodoo child
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 4135
 How does Billy Robinson's DVD's compare to Ceccine's?
2/16/10 7:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
laqueus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/29/08
Posts: 2369
I'd like to know that too.
2/16/10 8:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
catch wrestler
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/13/08
Posts: 53
proteinwisdom 
I'm further saying that nowhere on film do you see Gotch or Robinson hooking or showing hooks. If you find some examples, by all means, send the clips my way. So far, I see working holds -- which is not at all surprising to me, as that's what they spent years teaching.


What your saying is biased and subjective. Has all that you know about catch wrestling been learned from Tony? What other "catch experts" have you talked to that agree with this? Secondly, I dont believe "catch wrestling" can be narrowly defined. Look at BJJ for example. Even after only 100 years there are different styles of BJJ. Look at wrestling in just one country like Iran. There are at least 20 different types in just one country but they are all considered "wrestling".
2/16/10 10:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 490
voodoo child -  How does Billy Robinson's DVD's compare to Ceccine's?



Robinsons war set is the only one I've seen of his,imho,
technique wise,it's sightly better than Cecchines LAOH.Cecchines set has far superior production values and is my second favorite set ever.Dick Cardinals submissions and pins shows some slick moves,the second part of the dvd filmed at the Vancouver catch wrestling club is great,great stuff,production values are atrocious,as in filmed with a home video camera with almost nonexistent audio.The information is as good as anything on video though.

It's great to have access to this kind of instruction now days.In 88 i paid $60 a vhs for Lebells tapes and wanted to stab myself in the face with a soldering iron when i viewed them.$250 for Vales shootfighting tapes in 92.I cried for days afterward.
2/17/10 11:52 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
proteinwisdom
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/31/10
Posts: 15
***NO, THAT'S NOT THE TRUTH.
Capitalizing your words DOESN'T MAKE THE DENIAL ANY LESS INCORRECT! (See what I did there?)

Once again, I have never said what Gotch of Fujiwara does isn't REAL catch wrestling. Never. Ever. It is. And I don't know how I can make that any more clear.

Here, let me try it this way: GOTCH AND FUJIWARA DO REAL CATCH WRESTLING!

What I've ACTUALLY said -- and you keep missing the distinction -- is that they don't show hooking, at least, not in the sense Thesz uses the word. Now, Gotch is a bit different (he used "submission" and "hook" interchangeably, and others do as well, which leads to some confusion, IMO, because a fish can be submitted by a "hook" that is really nothing more than a show hold) -- but the fact remains that the submission holds used in UWFi aren't real hooks, unless by hooks you are using the term like Gotch did.

If the same moves that AREN'T hooks when they are being used in UWFi can become hooks based solely on the change of context (say, they are used in a shoot fight), then a "hook" is entirely context-defined.

That's not how I use the term.

So perhaps we'll all be well-served to define our terms up front in order to avoid misunderstandings.

I differentiate between hooks -- which to me are the holds designed to instantly break or snap or maim -- and concession holds, which (again) are dependent on the context.

What I've called "working holds" or "show holds," then, are concession holds that are easier to escape than the "hook" version of the hold -- and this is BY DESIGN, given that they were meant to be used in a compliant context.

They leave space for escapes (again, see, eg., the shin lock Billy Robinson shows, and note how the escape -- bringing the free leg over and spinning out -- is built in to the move); but yes, against people who don't know the escapes they will work: the guy in the Robinson clip taps, because he feels the pain.

I'm not conflating working holds with "rest holds" (also used in pro wrestling); I am merely differentiating between holds the were used in compliant matches to protect the wrestlers from holds that are designed to do serious damage instantly, which usually requires only a few modifications to the working hold.

As Lou Thesz notes in the comments I quoted, the UWFi coaches had enough to teach without teaching hooks (in the way Lou and I use the word).

If you wish to agree to use "hook" the way Gotch uses the term, that's cool -- but do keep in mind that that turns every BJJ guy, SAMBO guy, and Judo guy (who does ground work) into a "hooker."
2/17/10 11:59 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
catch wrestler
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/13/08
Posts: 54
proteinwisdom,

I can live with that. I'm not saying that I totally agree, but it's a happy medium. I wish we could go back 50-100 years ago.
2/17/10 12:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
proteinwisdom
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/31/10
Posts: 16
catch wrestler - 

What your saying is biased and subjective. Has all that you know about catch wrestling been learned from Tony? What other "catch experts" have you talked to that agree with this? Secondly, I dont believe "catch wrestling" can be narrowly defined. Look at BJJ for example. Even after only 100 years there are different styles of BJJ. Look at wrestling in just one country like Iran. There are at least 20 different types in just one country but they are all considered "wrestling".
Actually, I've lately been speaking to former pro wrestlers, who learn the working versions of several "hooks" to use in their shows. Nearly all of them learn some version of the double wrist lock or the toe hold, for instance, but what's missing is the small details -- and the honest ones freely admit that.

As far as talking to "catch experts," I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking if I've read the "Authoritative History of Catch Wrestling" or something like that? Because I haven't, because I don't believe its "author" has much credibility.

On the other hand, I do have Hewitt and Chapman's stuff, as well as the Sandow-Lewis library.

I agree with you that "catch wrestling" can't be narrowly defined. Which is why suddenly, the grappling world seems to be flooded with catch wrestlers. Anyone who wrestles and agrees to catch any hold is a catch wrestler. Pro wrestlers can be catch wrestlers. But they aren't hookers.

To amplify what I said earlier, I am looking to draw the distinction between "catch wrestling" and catch wrestling hooks.

And -- though evidently Victor doesn't want to hear it -- I am also looking to draw a distinction between the style of catch used by, say, Tragos and Santel, and the Wigan style.

Only Victor is trying to separate them out to argue that one is inherently better (though he attributes that argument to me); me, I haven't said that. I've only said that they differ -- which makes sense, given the geographical divide and the surrounding influences that would have made their way into each.
2/17/10 7:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
PoundforPound
163 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 19678
I too firmly believe that there was an English catch wrestling style, and then an American melting pot/rough-and-tumble catch wrestling style as well.

Just like how the boxing from England morphed into something a bit different here in the States.

As far as the American style goes Dick Cardinal is an excellent resource. I'd like to see him put out more instructional material. With high quality audio and video, not the cheap seminar crap that Jake put out.

(although I'm grateful that we even have that)
2/18/10 7:43 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
voodoo child
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 4147
de braco - 
voodoo child -  How does Billy Robinson's DVD's compare to Ceccine's?



Robinsons war set is the only one I've seen of his,imho,
technique wise,it's sightly better than Cecchines LAOH.Cecchines set has far superior production values and is my second favorite set ever.Dick Cardinals submissions and pins shows some slick moves,the second part of the dvd filmed at the Vancouver catch wrestling club is great,great stuff,production values are atrocious,as in filmed with a home video camera with almost nonexistent audio.The information is as good as anything on video though.

It's great to have access to this kind of instruction now days.In 88 i paid $60 a vhs for Lebells tapes and wanted to stab myself in the face with a soldering iron when i viewed them.$250 for Vales shootfighting tapes in 92.I cried for days afterward.
Thanks bro. I have the Ceccine tapes on VHS but I'm probably gonna pick them up on DVD at some point. I'm definitely gonna look at the Robinson DVD's.  Catch is important to any grappler who wants to improve his arsenal. As far as buying those other tapes back in the day, I feel you bro. You pay money expecting quality and they hand you over shit instead...
 

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.