UnderGround Forums
 

Wrestling UnderGround >> Wrestlers and Catch Wrestling


2/18/10 9:36 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 492
The Lebell tapes were marketed by panther as legit finishing holds and i'd always heard Gene really knew his stuff,so those were a bit of a disapointment.I still picked up a few useful things from the set.I heard Vale was Fujiwaras top guy,and since Fuji was considered an honorary "Bigun from Wigan",figured i couldn't go wrong this time.The last tape in the series was called ultimate moves of shootfighting.A hammerlock was an ultimate move.
2/18/10 10:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lechernich
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/18/09
Posts: 864
I worked with Gotch very briefly a few years before he passed away.

He was pretty vocal about the differece between show holds and real wrestling. He was also adamant about not liking the terms hooker/hooking because of its connotation to prostitution. He talked about rippers/ripping a few times, even showing a couple of moves('dirty' stuff like gouges and strikes designed to hurt/bloody an opponent so you could apply a concession hold) but for the most part he just called it wrestling.

He said Wigan wrestlers were very good, but that the American style was better because it was influenced by so many other styles and wrestlers who added to it over the years.

Even though he said he didn't like pro(fake) wrestling he said he liked the Japanese because of their interest in real wrestling and their work ethic when it came to the conditioning.

I haven't seen the Fujiwara set or any of Cechhine's newer stuff, but I have seen the LAOH and Gotch told me that Cecchine had sent him a letter and videotape seeking approval. Like most things, he called it an abortion. He basically said Cecchine wasn't a real wrestler and that it was nothing but show holds. He said the same thing about the USA wrestling tapes I showed him, especially the bridging and knee banging entries for double/single leg takedowns.

Again, I was only with Gotch for a short time, and he was still hampered by his bad hips, but when asked about the stuff that was being billed as 'catch' at that time versus real wrestling he would occasionally get on the mat to demonstrate a few moves. Stuff like double wrist lock, grovit, crooked headscissors, and this wicked leg ride that he turned into a hip crank. The difference was in the details pertaining to control positions(maintaining control so the opponent cannot squirm/muscle their way out) and the fulcrum used so as not to need to muscle someone into a hold.

Gotch was a big man for sure, but one of the lasting memories I have of him is that every time he touched you he hurt you. Whether he was showing an tie-up, an arm drag, or a control position before applying a hold, he was doing a lot of little stuff to distract you with pain so you wouldn't see what was coming. That along with his mindset and the emphasis he put on conditioning and the fundamentals of wrestling is what I see as the difference between legit catch wrestling and the snake oil salesmen who're cashing in on the fad of the moment.
2/18/10 11:13 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
catch wrestler
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/13/08
Posts: 56
Lechernich,

Pretty interesting stuff you posted. I had heard Gotch was a "fanatic" about conditioning. It's funny what he said about the Wigan wrestlers, only because he trained there for 5 years.

The submission master DVD's are not bad considering you get the 2 old ones and the newer clinic for around $50.
2/18/10 11:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
e. kaye
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 23019
 Gotch according to Furey (if he can be believed about ANYTHING), said that he would not teach you Catch until you completed two years of conditioning.

Also, Gotch was a cranky MFer, I don't remember him saying a nice thing about anyone or anything.
2/18/10 11:26 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lechernich
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/18/09
Posts: 865
catch wrestler - Pretty interesting stuff you posted. I had heard Gotch was a "fanatic" about conditioning. It's funny what he said about the Wigan wrestlers, only because he trained there for 5 years.


Fanatic is an understatement, imo. The first time I met him he hobbled into the gym with a walker and sat in a chair on the mat. After a week or two he was walking pretty well on his own and that's when he started getting on the mat to demo moves. He said it was because he refused to follow his doctor's orders about not working out.

He always said he never charged anyone a dime to train them. You paid him by doing the conditioning, period. It took about 2yrs of conditioning before he'd really show you how to wrestle, not just demo moves. Unfortunately for me I never got that opportunity.

The Wigan vs American statement isn't a big deal because it's only natural that the larger the knowledge base/talent pool the more things will change and improve for the better. Gotch was the last person in the world to sugarcoat anything so I couldn't imagine him answering the question another way. It's like the story he told me once about being asked if he'd ever been taken down before in a shoot or amateur match. His response was something along the lines of, "who the fuck do they think I am, superman?". Meaning he didn't bullshit people by overstating his knowledge/abilities or saying that his way was the only way(ie: Wigan is the best because he trained there).
2/19/10 6:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Victor Parlati
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/19/10 6:37 PM
Member Since: 5/16/04
Posts: 1249
And -- though evidently Victor doesn't want to hear it -- I am also looking to draw a distinction between the style of catch used by, say, Tragos and Santel, and the Wigan style. Only Victor is trying to separate them out to argue that one is inherently better (though he attributes that argument to me)...(proteinwisdom)

................

***THIS IS A COMPLETE LIE. It IS proteinwisdom who constantly tries to separate Wigan from American catch in order to try and argue that American is inherently better.

Now I'm not saying that there aren't some differences between Wigan and American catch - and I'm not saying that Thesz didn't have a more flowing catch style than Gotch, for example...

but what proteinwisdom constantly tries to do is make a giant mountain OUT OF A MOLE HILL.

Which creates a false impression that American is inherently better than Wigan catch...

and then from there he goes further and starts saying that no pro matches on vid with Gotch or Robinson shows any knowlegde of real catch hooks (submissions)...So, where do you see this in Thesz's matches???

Therfore, proteinwisdom's argument goes: these guys weren't really hookers...but proteinwisdom backtracts when it's pointed out to him that even Thesz called Gotch "a true hooker who trained in Wigan (in Lou's book)...

so then proteinwisdom's thrust becomes to point to the Japanese pro wrestlers trained by Gotch.

And the tactic used to try and do this is to point to Japanese pro wrestling as being just showholds...

but when challenged to give details of what on Yoshiaki Fujiwara's vids are showholds - proteinwisdom grows strangely quiet.

Case closed.
2/19/10 9:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
PoundforPound
154 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 19703
Atholl Oakley was another English catch wrestler, and in his book "Blue Blood on the Mat" he mentions that in the 1920s and 1930s when he came over here the Americans had the best wrestling in the world.

So I don't think we should be so quick to gloss over that point.
2/19/10 10:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 508
American cacc was heavily influenced by Irish c&e and jiudo.During a tour of England, Frank Gotch beat George Dinnie of Sheffield,three falls in 2 minutes,10 seconds.Dinnie said Gotchs style was new and they didn't know anything about it in england.It's possible what's known as wigan catch is a mixture of the more wide open american style and traditional Lancanshire.
2/20/10 3:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Victor Parlati
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/20/10 3:52 PM
Member Since: 5/16/04
Posts: 1250
"It's possible what's known as wigan catch is a mixture of the more wide open american style and traditional Lancanshire."
............................
***THAT'S an interesting possibility by way of explaining what differences do exist between Wigan and American catch.
2/20/10 4:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
all american combatant
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/22/09
Posts: 3
americancombatassn.com is a great place to go to learn submission/catch wrestling techniques. Kamal Shalorus' DVD Technical Takedowns is world class and shows you how to use your wrestling to set up subs and ground and pound.
2/20/10 5:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Victor Parlati
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 02/20/10 5:48 PM
Member Since: 5/16/04
Posts: 1251
Here's an interesting youtube clip of Karl Gotch teaching some pro wrestling to the Japanese: and about 30 seconds in you'll see a few quick looks at Yoshiaki Fujiwara performing a really nice throw off a whizzer...

What I found fascinating about this clip is how Karl mixes some "show" stuff - like hitting the guy with your shoulder and making a big noise doing it...

and some excellent wrestling.

Karl Gotch was definitely a master at catch wrestling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nq1qgDHiJU&feature=related
2/20/10 5:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Victor Parlati
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/16/04
Posts: 1254
And a nice basic one from Tony Cecchine about using the head & arm position / scarf hold.

Really excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOBJVp9pTa4
2/20/10 10:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 512
Nice Gotch clip
3/2/10 8:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
supersaiyan
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/20/02
Posts: 26475
 great   stuff
3/2/10 9:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
KidJustice
158 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/15/02
Posts: 12399
 Gotch Video
www.youtube.com/watch
3/10/10 12:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Boxer82
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/11/10
Posts: 14
de braco - 
voodoo child -  How does Billy Robinson's DVD's compare to Ceccine's?


It's great to have access to this kind of instruction now days.In 88 i paid $60 a vhs for Lebells tapes and wanted to stab myself in the face with a soldering iron when i viewed them.$250 for Vales shootfighting tapes in 92.I cried for days afterward.


We have all done it.
3/10/10 4:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 516
How about Fureys Farmer Burns set?
3/14/10 2:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Victor Parlati
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/16/04
Posts: 1259
Waaaaaaaaay overpriced for the little good that was there.
3/14/10 9:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 517
I've never seen them,he did have a good magazine for a short while.
4/5/10 11:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/26/10 11:56 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 529
the great 1903 clip with the two kids wrestling an exhibition match.oldie but goodie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIGCTyUchaY 
4/7/10 5:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ReneH
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1756
Larry Hartsell used to use several phrases when referring to certain hols, it was to differentiate them according to the purpose.

Time holds = exactly that. Goes back to the rules of wrestling and earning points or winning a bout. He also used to mention "Show holds" as well.

4/7/10 8:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 530
Hartsell was big on the show holds,show hold meaning one that would only work on someone in a coma.
5/10/10 10:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
de braco
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 564
 1924 Silver medalist Nat Pendelton,at 3.40 demonstrates fighting a boxer.Saw this on the Lou Thesz forum and thought someone here might be interested.
5/12/10 12:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Victor Parlati
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/16/04
Posts: 1362
That was really impressive.

ttt
6/7/10 1:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
scuffler
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/07/10 4:31 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5822
Very quickly - Jeff is simply lying. I have no reason to lie (unlike him) as I no longer have any dog in any fight. Maybe he doesn't remember it but he did threaten me with civil actions. Even went into detail about why civil action could be taken and on what grounds. The man is simply lying. Some of you guys have known me here for many years. Maybe I have not always been your favorite person, but I hope it is well known that I am simply not a liar. I may be opinionated, abrasive, confrontational at times, but I'm not a liar. Apparently Jeff is. I even went and consulted an attorney friend on the matter (he recently died btw RIP Steve)

He is also lying about me claiming that Stanley Radwan never existed. I once MISTAKENLY used the word mythical instead of mystical (which is what I meant) and this whole claim arose from that. BUT if anybody still has the thread from many years ago that came from they would know that I gave some details of his life?! SO I was giving out details in the life of someone who never existed? Come on......

-------------------------------------------------------

Hello to those who I haven't seen or posted to in ages. Take a little advice from someone who has been there, wasted some opportunities and burned many a bridge....just train, be happy and live as best you can. Life is too short to concern yourself too much with the actions of others which are outside of your control anyway. All you can really do is try to make the best decisions for yourself from day to day.

I got involved in the martial arts sometime like 34 years ago, I now believe the whole thing has been a work ;)

Victor, de braco, P4P, others, we haven't always agreed but I like all you guys. God bless stay well and try to get along :)

If time and other factors allow maybe I'll stop by the OG a little.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.