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2/25/09 12:03 AM
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e. kaye
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 AtomicElbow-As usual you can be expected to show up and spew the Jake Shannon BS.

You are aware that every single accusation that Jake manufactured has been thoroughly debunked.

For any lurkers there is an extensive thread on Bullshido where the lies about Tony are destroyed.    His recent student blogger Jeff G and others take on the BS with facts and truth.

You can find more truth on the RMATA forum.

Unfortunatley none of the old threads with the facts are still on this forum.

Jake is the phony and liar with an agenda.    And still posts his lies on his website without presenting the other side. 
2/25/09 12:13 PM
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AtomicElbow
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Edited: 02/25/09 12:30 PM
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e.kaye is the one lying agan, just like Tony Cecchine.

This is from Bill Cogswell, Neckcranku) on the Cecchine Controversy FAQ from the Catch Forum:8. Has Cecchine stolen money from his own ICWA members via providing no return? This one is a no brainer as there are 120+ ICWA members who lost all their money, time and efforts they put into the ICWA. Memberships were either $50 per year or $250 for a Lifetime membership which about 50 or so of us actually bought. There was supposed to be forum access, product discounts (never happened), private forum access (never happened), Bi-Weekly audio meetings (never happened), Video analysis, email support, access to rare books hosted online, and much more. You can go here: http://www.icwa.info/home.htm and read all the "benefits" for yourself! Most of the items I mentioned were removed from this page about 3 years ago but there's still enough there to get the point. I'm not sure why that page is still up and possibly taking ICWA memberships as it died years ago. Cecchine also blamed the ICWA members themselves for the ICWA failing because the members who had paid their money, weren't dedicated enough, ie. didn't buy enough of his DVD products. Therefore it was somehow the members fault it shut down. The bottom line is there was roughly $13,000+ that was received from his ICWA members who within a year's time lost their investment with no return. Now, this is one complaint people have that can be backed up with solid evidence and there's no disputing that one.

9. Is Cecchine an ethical person? This are also many allegations that are proven by many people's testimonies about having been wronged by Cecchine. Many people have come forward stating Cecchine either took their money and never gave a return, tried to have people hurt by others (including suggestion hurting a handicapped man to get him to quit training) or himself , removed members from his ICWA for having opposing views on various topics and more. He has also been known to threaten several people physically for not agreeing with his opinions and is very verbally abusive according to many accounts. Another problem reported by many people is Cecchine's lack of honesty and his wild claims. Certain sections of his video material are exaggerated and or blatant lies in his advertisements. Here is an example: "Bruce actually goes live with EVERY seminar participant. He TELLS THEM that he is going to take them down with a front headlock....then he does it without anyone stopping him"...from the ICWA Workshop set The truth about this segment of the "ICWA Workshop" set is that Bruce said he was going to apply the front headlock and the takedown on us all so we could get a feel for what it was like. We all dipped our heads and let him apply the front headlock and then jerk us down so that we could "feel the move". There was zero resistance and we all willingly let Bruce do this. Anyone who attended this workshop can attest to that! Cecchine also in the past had stated that he was the only authentic and legitimate source of catch wrestling , however he has since changed his website to state "Tony Cecchine is one of the few who carries on the tradition and knowledge of Catch Wrestling." On customer service with ordering products from Cecchine: "In my experience he's been flawless in terms of fulfilling orders for his video / dvd products, etc. I've ordered basically every product he has ever put out publically (except an ICWA membership or an "In The Loop Group" membership) and have never had a problem with a transaction. Everything I've ordered was delivered promptly, in full and was exactly what was expected. And I don't think I've ever heard of anybody complaining about getting shorted on a product order. So while he might have been involved in some business transactions that were shady in some regards, in fairness to Tony I think it's worth mentioning that he has a reputation for delivering ordered merchandise."...from forum member Sprhodes.

Personal experience from forum member mbajj: "I too am one of those bitter about the ICWA. I joined it twice. Tony startend the ICWA, did nothing but let it die. His computer supposidly crashed and he lost all the members names. Then Bill Cogswell, Jake and the "seminar guys" helped bring it back. Tony made no attempt to bring the old members in. Instead I had to join again and and purchased the lifetime membership. Tony started off so well then nothing. Promises he made failed to appear, things he was offering (like downloads) went away. I was training with a friend at the time who wanted copies of LAOH. I refused to let him copy my tapes and told him to buy his own from Tony. He did and he also joined the ICWA. I told my friend not to, not until Tony started keeping his promises, but he joined anyway. Tony failed to send the ICWA certificate. I emailed Tony requesting that Tony send it. He just said that he did, and then a few days later my log-in on Tonys forum did not work." Cecchine also scrapped the ICWA and all members (around 150 total) lost their investments, roughly $13,000 in memberships alone. However, although those ICWA members lost all their money., Cecchine still has several different types of memberships available "In the Loop Group" and the "CCC", as well it appears he still sells memberships to the now defunct ICWA on this page: http://www.icwa.info/home.htm Most if not all of these allegations have been backed up directly from the people who have been wronged.
2/25/09 12:25 PM
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AtomicElbow
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Tom Lawlor,
you said you trained with Jonny Huskey, well he was trained by Billy Wicks. Wicks PUBLICLY called cecchine a "deadbeat dad" and a fraud in a handprinted letter Jake Shannon put up. Cecchine is a fake. Ask THEM what they think of phony tony.

cecchine is also about 45 years old and STILL lives with his mother and doesn't work. he's been living with his mother and not working since Shane tucker was there. (Shane tucker is the Stone Cold Steve Austin lookalike who is on the Cecchine CD-Rom that is dated Aug 1999, filmed at his gym.) he's physically capable of offering to do seminars (not that anyone wants him) but somehow incapable of going out and getting a job. There are enough people on the UG who lived with him and trained with him who can verify that he doesn't work and lives with his mother, who DOES work to support him.

*Can't blame the economy- he didn't work when Clinton was president, and still doesn't work now.

So again, do your research.
2/25/09 12:28 PM
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e. kaye
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Edited: 02/25/09 12:28 PM
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 Still repeating the same old bullshit, huh? 

If people are curious, they will find the truth.

I told them where to look.

There is no reason to re-type any of it here.
2/25/09 12:37 PM
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AtomicElbow
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Still can't refute that Tony ripped off the entire ICWA?

Still can't refute that he lied on the ICWA videos?

Still can't refute that he's a DEADBEAT DAD who is in his mid forties, doesn't work,and lives with his mother?

For anyone who doesn't know, Bill Cogswell (Neckcranku on this forum) was the V.P. of the ICWA, and PAID for the ICWA private forum. Both he AND his wife were banned from a forum he paid for, never mind his wife never even posted there. (BIll paid for his wife's membership to support the ICWA)

I'll cut and post anything I feel like if it means more people make more informed decisions about giving cecchine their money.
2/25/09 12:39 PM
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e. kaye
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 Yawn.

Quite frankly I cannot be bothered.  Same old nonesense.  

Been there, done that.     All lies or half truths.

The truth is out there for the curious.

You have an obvious ax to grind.

Or are Jake.
2/25/09 1:21 PM
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Tom Lawlor
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I have watched some Ceccine vids and was much more impressed with Husky than I was with anything I saw in a Tony C. video.
2/26/09 8:09 PM
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Philanderer
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Tony did rip off the entire ICWA- that is one of the few things that can't be disputed. he made promises and didn't deliver, then pretended it never happened. And he personally blamed us the members.

But in fairness to Tony, the scientificwrestling.com page on him really doesn't really incriminate him. Anyone else find it to be vage?! Written like a soap opera with inuendos, I couldn't understand why Jake always harped on Radwan and the golden gloves boxing. That is NOT what will discredit him, as no one can prove one way or another about radwan. Its the statements by everyone else that did him in- and Jake was either to tunnel visioned or too careless or too proud to include the other stuff. How could he not include what happened with the ICWA if he really wanted to get at tony?
Kind of like how he ran the catch forum here

But Jake does put out a great product, with legit people in his org.

For anyone who gives a shit the old catch forum threads are on Subscrip. if you posted on them
2/27/09 10:04 AM
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e. kaye
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 Why is it necessary to call it "ripping off".    Maybe Tony started a business and it failed.   Most new businesses fail in their first year.     Maybe he is just a bad businessman.     Do you really think that he started the IWCA with the intent to steal money from the members?   

2/27/09 12:42 PM
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AtomicElbow
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"You have an obvious ax to grind."-

LOL, of course I have an ax to grind, so do all of the other people tony cecchine ripped off! He took our money and gave nothing in return. he is offering the SAME service as the ICWA but under a different name.

T0m lawlor,
just ask Jonny Huskey about his and Wicks personal experience with cecchine. ekaye can't refute a single thing I posted, so he just calls them lies. But he's calling Bill cogswell, Billy wicks, Shawn Chitwood,and all of cecchine's other former friends and associates liars when he does that.

Here is where Shawn Chitwood, the person who taught with cecchine on his "double trouble" videos posts about him:

http://vincentfields.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=41

"On Tony's Character
1) Tony treats people like sh!t.
2) Tony has a God complex
3) Tony stabs friends in the back to make himself look better. This list is VERY long and my name is on it.
4) Tony hides behind fake names on the internet and behind real life friends to push his agendas (see 1-3).

I did nothing but endorse, encurage, and support Tony. I like to think I had much to do with the start of his more commercial career. Not one time did a bad thing about him come out of my mouth.... ever. Even after we didnt keep in real close contact. What did I get? I got sh!t on, lied to, bad-mouthed, hara*sed, bullied, and threatened. All of it was unprevoked."

So Chitwood does say cecchine has ability, but ALSO calls him a liar. but according to ekaye, Chitwood is a liar too.


Philander, this has nothing to do with Jake Shannnon.
3/2/09 6:50 PM
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voodoo child
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thats some crazy shit. all this time i thought tony was cool as shit and i really enjoyed his videos.
3/3/09 10:15 AM
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e. kaye
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 1-I have never called Chitwood a liar.   He is one of the few honorable guys in this discussion.

2-You are delusional and have some sort of derangement going on.

3-People can find the facts if they want to.   The Bullshido thread and the RMATA thread have all of the information.    Your repeating the same old tired BS is not going to change anything.

PS-Grow the fuck up.

3/3/09 5:46 PM
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Philanderer
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voodoo child - thats some crazy shit. all this time i thought tony was cool as shit and i really enjoyed his videos.


We all did, that's why we were willing to pay for the ICWA memberships. And we DID get ripped off by Tony- he received money for services that he didn't provide, then pretended like it never happened. Wouldn't answer emails or phone calls. And he still sells the ICWA seminar labeled as "CACC Seminar Series 2003." of course he doesn't mention in the description that its the ICWA seminar. Selling the same dvds and providing the same service under a different name.

regarding Jake,

he offers better products and a better service, but does some of the same things Tony did. Ex. You couldn't criticize tony on the ICWA or you'd get banned- he banned some of his own moderaters like Chitwood and Bill Cogswell! of course that forum died.

Jake didn't mind everyone arguing with each otherand insulting each on the cath forum here, but when someone (NOT a cecchine supporter) posted some of the similarities between how both jake and Tony did things, that got deleted immediately. Some of his business practices are also suspect.
But yeah the people on the scientificwrestling.com staff- Billy wicks, billy robinson, dick cardinal, josh barnett, frank shamrock etc- absolutely blow tonys org away. Tony cant compete with them- hell tonys the one who said how great wicks, cardinal etc were.

you guys defending tony do nothing but make things worse for him. Proof is in the seminars he's had to cancel and the dvds he's not selling (source- tony himself). Tonys enemies have won, especially with the economy as shitty as it is no one is going to spend money on his products. Tonys reputation is shit, And the ICWA, deadbeat dad, and living with his mother facts are not going to jusst disappear. so post away, it'll have no effect whatsoever other than to insure than even less people buy from him.
3/3/09 5:54 PM
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e. kaye
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 It would be nice if that was true, but Tony is doing fine.

He has a gym and is still selling DVDs.    

3/4/09 7:27 PM
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AtomicElbow
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Edited: 03/04/09 7:38 PM
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Double
3/4/09 7:32 PM
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AtomicElbow
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Philander, there is no comparison between Jake Shannon and Tony Cecchine.

Tony Cecchine is a deadbeat dad; Jake is NOT.

Tony Cecchine is 45 years old, doesn't work, and still lives with his mother. Jake has a job and does NOT live with his mother.

Tony Cecchine ripped off all 120+ members of the ICWA. Jake did NOT rip off the ICWA members, cecchine did that.
3/4/09 7:38 PM
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AtomicElbow
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e. kaye -  1-I have never called Chitwood a liar.   He is one of the few honorable guys in this discussion.

2-You are delusional and have some sort of derangement going on.3-People can find the facts if they want to.   The Bullshido thread and the RMATA thread have all of the information.    Your repeating the same old tired BS is not going to change anything.PS-Grow the fuck up.


That's great! You agree with Chitwood that

"On Tony's Character1) Tony treats people like sh!t.2) Tony has a God complex3) Tony stabs friends in the back to make himself look better. This list is VERY long and my name is on it.4) Tony hides behind fake names on the internet and behind real life friends to push his agendas (see 1-3).I did nothing but endorse, encurage, and support Tony. I like to think I had much to do with the start of his more commercial career. Not one time did a bad thing about him come out of my mouth.... ever. Even after we didnt keep in real close contact. What did I get? I got sh!t on, lied to, bad-mouthed, hara*sed, bullied, and threatened. All of it was unprevoked."LOL@ you calling anyone else delusional- no one cares what you think otherwise they wouldn't have left the ICWA like they did. That forum existed for over a year with no one posting on it before phony tony shut it down.

But one more time:

Tony Cecchine is a deadbeat dad.

Tony Cecchine is 45 years old, doesn't work, and still lives with his mother.

Tony Cecchine ripped off all 120+ members of the ICWA.

Tony Cecchine is NOT doing fine, he is laughed at by the entire world- people all over mma.tv have made him the butt of jokes over the years because of the above facts. If he were doing fine, he wouldn't be 45 years old and still need his mother to provide for him.

Tony Cecchine is ekayes whole purpose for existing. Losers of a feather flock together. Hey why don't you have tony use you as a testimonial on his site? I'm sure that will improve sales since you are so well respected. LOL@ ekaye thinking what he says actually matter. I'm sure tony also appreciates that you nominated him for the ICWA Father of the Year Award- which he did win 2 years in a row.
3/5/09 9:00 AM
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e. kaye
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 You are pathetic.
3/5/09 11:48 PM
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Philanderer
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Pay attention Jake, maybe you'll learn something about making an argument with facts instead of soap opera type inuendos.

Tony sent out an email to his mailing list on Thursday, January 18, 2007 entitled “2- Day Chicago Seminar---Limited Enrollment”. It said that:

“The seminar will be held from noon to 5 PM with an hour lunch break on Feb. 17, 2007 and from 9:00 AM until 1:00 PM on Sunday Feb. 18, 2007”

Then the arguments start on the mma.tv catch forum, the tape Tony sent Gotch is put on youtube, and he has to cancel that one. That video certainly didnt help him


In the Thursday December 27, 2007 email Tony sent out titled “Feb, 2008 Catch Wrestling Seminar”
He sent out an e-mail announcing that

“The first seminar of the new year will be held in Chicago at the World Headquarters on Saturday, February 16, 2008 from Noon to 5:00 PM.”


That one got cancelled too. Jake didn’t even have to do anything that time (that i know of)

The bottom of that e-mail says “COPYRIGHT 1995-2008, Cecchine International. All rights reserved.”


“Cecchine International” is the same company that existed before the original 10 tape Lost Art of Hooking series was offered by WMA in 1999, the same company that offered the ICWA memberships in 2003- about 2005, AND the same company offering the seminars that didn’t happen and the same services as the ICWA in the “In The Loop” group or whatever the fuck he named it now in 2008. And of course on his site he’s changed the name of his company again.

Tony DID rip off ALL the ICWA members.


Tony is not “doing fine.” He personally posted on the ICWA site that no one was buying his products in about 2004. This was BEFORE he had competition from Scientific Wrestling.com, AND before his reputation got destroyed when all his friends started starting speaking out against him, calling him a fake, etc.

On the rmata.com thread, brucelee (the big asian guy who coached for him) says “There's no way he can hang when it comes to takedowns, that's why I taught all the takedowns after we met.”-

So why is he selling videos on takedown defense? Even if bruce is doing the teaching, there’s no reason to buy his dvds when world, Olympic and UFC champs like Couture, Jackson, hendo, Schultz, Militech, Lidell, etc are selling them.

Since everyone is universally high on Chitwood, on the same rmata.com thread, he says,
“You can be a self pronouced catch master, self promoted grand master, or a lifetime white belt. But you know what? That title and your aility is proven or disproven once you are on the mat. And when you are old and injury plaqued, your ability is proven through your students.”


Tony’s ability has NOT been proven through his students. His student Brian Klaus did win the NAGA NO- GI Masters Super Heavy Weight Intermediate div in 2007, but he was a former National Powerlifting Champ with previous wrestling experience. Someone that strong could win with Judo, BJJ, Sambo, etc. Also, congrats to him, but the masters intermediate is not as high as the regular intermediate (and yes you can enter an age division BELOW your own, not above). Intermediate is not as high as advanced. It took tony 12 YEARS to have a single student win an event at a level that was NOT the highest. He did get laughed at on the UG for that.

People are going to buy dvds from guys like Billy Robinson, Sperry, or Garcia- guys who have won or produced champs at the highest levels of MMA and grappling. Tony can’t compete with them. Maybe he does sell a dvd here or there, but his products are not a “must have.” Whether he has a gym or not is debatable, considering how he doesn’t list the street address (avoiding someone tony?) and having a gym means shit if few people are willing to pay to train there.
You guys can keep holding on to the fantasy that tony is “doing fine” or that he did not rip off the ICWA, but the facts say otherwise (LOOK AT THE COPYRIGHT).

And his mother has to be in her mid to late sixties by now, since tony is about 45. It is disgraceful the burden he puts on her. People will avoid doing business with him just because of that, the same way they boycotted Exxon or Walmart or south african diamonds during apartheid.
3/5/09 11:56 PM
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Philanderer
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Edited: 03/06/09 12:01 AM
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unfilteredmma - I was there with Gotch for a summer when I was in college. To say people didn't like him because he said things how they were was an understatement.My honest feeling is that catch is an unevolved art. It is stuck 100 years ago when athletes were strong from doing farm work. Today athletes are not as strong in that sense. They are quicker, can jump higher, and trained for flexibility.Don't get me wrong though. There is still a lot to learn from it. but, even if you look at amateur wrestling it has evolved so much from that time. The pace is quicker and so are the athletes.You can't take catch and throw in wrestling. You have to take wrestling and throw in catch... Does that make sense?Wrestling is already out there. If you bring in the catch submissions that is better than trying to learn a complete new system. And, as it is... Catch can be marketed as the unstopable ancient art. It is unstoppable and if you doubt that you should get a time machine and go find Gotch...



...Tony cecchines supporters arent the only ones who are all talk- one of gotch's students was always a critical know it all, even posting that matt serra wouldn't submit him! And either gotch's student or some of billy wicks students were ging off about how the old catch wrestlers were better than todays' olympic wrestlers! Sure the Olympic wrestlers may not have subs in their wrestler, but if the catch guy is getting taken down hard and slammed to the mat and pinned hard by the modern wrestler, how the fuck will they be able to pull off their subs?! if these guys are so good because they learned from legit catch wrestlers then they should have no problem beating up on the grapplers in NAGA or GQ who are not on matt serra's level.
3/6/09 10:13 AM
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e. kaye
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 LOL-I am not sure what your pathology is, but your obsession borders on lunacy.

Anyone interested can go to Bullshido and read the thread.      Jeff G does a great job of answering all questions.

Philanderer is stuck, living in the past.    

Tony has a gym and is still selling videos.    Youtube and other online sites rpovide all of the exposure on needs to sell product.    Philanderer is stuck in 2004 it would seem.
3/7/09 2:33 AM
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wmkelleo
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So, this is why the catch forum died!!!

*shakes head*
3/7/09 12:35 PM
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e. kaye
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 Yup.   
3/7/09 9:34 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Edited: 03/07/09 9:57 PM
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A WHOLE NEW CATCH PERSPECTIVE...

is needed, imo. And here it is: Cacc is a great wrestling/grappling/fighting art that almost disappeared.

And for those of us who are interested in reviving it, learning it, using it, teaching it, etc...

then a SHOTGUN APPROACH needs to be taken - and a REFUSAL to get bogged down in the politics (and the economics) of cacc is an absolute must.

For example, what I have done over the last 8 years or so in this regard is this - and I highly recommend this or something similar...

Many, many, many hours/weeks/months, etc. spent watching, rewatching, analyzing, and most importantly, taking to the mat the following cacc materials:

Virtually all of Tony Cecchine's vids...
Yoshiaki Fugiwara's two vids...
the same for Dick Cardinal,
Billy Robinson,
Josh Barnett's "Attacking the Guard" vid...
Kazushi Sakuraba's instructional vid...
Randy Couture's vids and his book, "Wrestling for Fighting" - since the evolution of cacc also included elements of Greco-Roman...

Mark Shultz's vid...
Wade Shalles' vid...(both of which are very helpful for pure wrestling)...

and the same for Sakuraba, Couture, and Barnett's fights (get/make copies of them and study constantly).

And get the Wigan (Lancashire) catch documentary, "Catch, the hold not taken."

And forget all the bullshit (and there's quite a bit) that comes from Jake Shannon, and all the "I'm the REAL American catch and all the rest are showholds" jive coming from Tony Cecchine.

And if you have the opportunity to spend any time with any of these people directly - do it.
3/8/09 2:43 PM
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Philanderer
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LOL@ e.kaye. Why don't you go enter some grappling tournaments to prove that Tony's stuff works since you insist it does? You'd be backing up what you claim, but you'd get killed though, so instead you just hide behind your computer where its safe. You're just a talker, and if all your campagning actually helped tony, he wouldnt have had to cancel 2 seminars

Why don't you host some seminars? You have an MBA, I'm sure you'd do a great job running it. Except that you know any seminar with Tony Cecchine is going to be a money loser. So youll never put your money where your mouth is, like tony's FORMER friends did. Again, youre just a talker.

No, You won't do anything other than post online. Tony must be glad to have you, a talker, rather than people who will compete and host seminars and do things that will make him actual money.

You're the one still stuck in 2004 and the fantasy that Tony is doing well. It's no fanatsy that he's had to cancel 2 seminars in 2007 AND 2008, or that he ripped off the entire ICWA (again- the copyright proves this). It's no fantasy that people know about his living situation or what kind of parent he is. People don't respect deadbeat dads- theres no way that coming to light helped his reputation.

The reason mma.tv has as much sponsorship as it does and UFC fighters posting here is because it is the most visited forum and best forum online. People will go here for there info, not bullshido

Enjoy your little cecchine fantasy world, ekaye, I prefer reality. Tony can partly thank you for his "success"

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