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Wrestling UnderGround >> Wrestlers and Catch Wrestling


6/30/09 9:05 AM
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e. kaye
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 Took you several days to come up with that?

For anyone that is interested, there is a Bullshido thread that completely covers and debunks all of Atomicdouchebags  allegations.       Tony's student Jeff G,  does a great job and in great detail.

6/30/09 9:55 AM
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supersaiyan
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Edited: 06/30/09 9:56 AM
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""There is also a record of him buying Gokor Chivikian's (Sambo/Judo under Gene Lebell) Leg Lock tape set only three weeks before filming the leg lock section of his ten series tapes, in which he performs a completely identical 7 leg lock chain.

No need to buy anything from cecchine- just buy it from where he learned it.""


-

WHAT are u serious ..does that include the ""step over toe hold"" aspect as well...please tell me LOAH isnt just a rip off from Gokor's material...

2. Has gene or gokor ( if they know) tried to get legal property rights copyrighted for their material? if so wouldnt that be a criminal charge against Tony C for trying to pass off a product as his own ? i find it hard to believe noone at HayastanGrappling wouldnt see this tho and not take action if it is indeed true.




ekaye -

i am gonna check on the search for this. something is nt right here somewhere.
6/30/09 7:40 PM
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workman43113
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Look around in your town if you ask enough people in the 70 and above age range they will know someone who was a catch wrestler I guarantee. I'm going to make a web site soon with information and history from Charlie and I will post the link here for any of you who are interested.
6/30/09 8:32 PM
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supersaiyan
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workman43113 - If you want authentic catch be resourceful and look for old timers in the early 70-80's range. I live in a rural area and found a true genuine catch wrestler who only wrestled real matches. No need to go to an audit or buy tapes if you do the groundwork you will find them. It took me almost 2 years but at 79 years old Charlie Davis my catch coach completely changed the way I view grappling. I used to train in BJJ with Jorge Gurgel, Rich Franklin, Dustin Hazelett, Dustin Ware and to many great grapplers to name, I'm no world beater but I have won multiple grappling tournaments in advanced divisions and nothing I mean nothing I learned up until training with Mr. Davis can touch the effectiveness or know how of this man or art for my personal style. Catch is not suited for all but those who it is for will reap the rewards. If top notch wrestlers would train in catch style wrestling they would be dominating and submitting top level BJJ guys in sport and fight because it perfectly compliments those with a strong wrestling base and allows them to be dangerously offensive submission wise where as when they train BJJ it seems to make them able to defend and position better but not launch a truly offensive submission assault that catch would create.

P.S. I'm not knocking bjj or saying catch is superior so all bjj nutt jockers please refrain from commenting, thank you

-

workman ...i cant say how much this is so DAMN TRUE and is worth gold... how can anyone in their rigght mind not see the value in this concept..if ppl would stop trying to be "this is better than ______" garbage they would be able to see some more insight to realize that what they are doing is really just 1/1000 of the learning they could be achieving.

this coming from a BJJer straight up....BUT i never gear away from elsewhere to add and learn something unorthodox or to augment what i already know...its something called " learning" . A trait that is forever falling due to people trying so hard in utter disdain to disprove another and really getting nowhere -- leaving their whole life one sided with a single mind. The human brain isnt meant like that ...its to be diversed as the intake of "learning" is meant to be.

I rather be ambi-dexterous than one dimentsional.
7/2/09 5:24 PM
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AtomicElbow
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Bill, anything to add? You were there in 2003 (you can see Bill on the ICWA video) I am sure Victor Parlati is mistaken, but you would know

Do all your research, supersaiyan.

there is a reason why Cecchine has lost friends from all over the country. Not worthless losers like e.kaye who will only post on the internet and do nothing else. People like e.kaye whose lives revolve around the internet don't matter There is not a single reason why anyone should care what ekaye thinks because ekay has never done a single thing that proves hes wortht listening to

Even with all of the internet posting, the 2009 seminar cecchine planned a few months ago STILL fell through. ANOTHER failure on Tony Cecchine's part. guys who actually moved to chicago to train with cecchine, hosted seminars for him, made the ICWA possible and are respected because they competed are the people who matter, and they all hate tony. That list is HUGE.

But regarding copying moves, you cant copyright them. Judo guys cant sue BJJ guys for teaching a choke or other move that is done exactly the same way. the same way rorian gracie can't sue the other gracies or their students for teaching an art his father invented.


Scuffler (mark jones) is the one to talk to about where Tony Cecchine got his moves for LAOH.

People keep bringing up how Josh barnett said nice things about Cecchine's videos- well then why didnt barnett every train with cecchine? Cecchine is a lot closer to WA than karl gotch was (in Fla), and Barnett trained with him, but not cecchine. Josh barnett is a huge name in MMA, why doesnt cecchine use a quote from him on his website? barnett wants nothing to do with phony tony. People saying that barnett said nice things about the cecchine videos are right, but that all that means is that the moves that work cecchine did a good job of copying.

http://www.catchwrestle.com/?page_id=127

"Tony has received praise from other luminaries such as Doug Blubaugh, Mark Schultz, and “Judo” Gene LeBell, to name a few — and in 2006 was recognized by Black Belt Magazine as one of the world’s 20 greatest street fighters."

All the links to Blubaughs and Schultzs names go to is a site that provides their Olympic records, but Cecchine doesnt even provide a direct quote to back up his claim that they praised him. He expects everyone to take his word for it. But Schultz and lebell are still alive- ask them what they think of cecchine

Ask Billy Wicks, tonys father figure, what he thinks of him- or better yet just read the letter he wrote to Jake on www.scientificwrestling.com

so again do your research and youll come to the same conclusion that tonys former friends and supporters came to: that he's a fake
7/2/09 6:04 PM
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e. kaye
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 Tony did in fact have an April seminar in Chicago.
7/2/09 6:35 PM
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e. kaye
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 Oh and once again, go to Bullshido and read Jeff G's posts.        All of the accusations are addressed and laid to rest.    The only two conspiracy believers left seem to be Jake and AE.
7/2/09 11:14 PM
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supersaiyan
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this sucks ...it is rather unsettling on both counts UGH damn
7/3/09 12:52 AM
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Victor Parlati
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Edited: 07/03/09 12:22 PM
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Just to clarify a few things:

1) Josh Barnett was on this website (the catch forum, and the UG forum) at least 4 or 5 times making remarks that were favorable to Tony Cecchine.

2) Karl Gotch is KARL GOTCH. Of course Barnett found his way there before ever even considering going to see Tony Cecchine, which to my knowledge has yet to happen. And may never happen. So what?

Karl Gotch has been recognized as one of the greatest cacc wrestlers of the 20th century. An icon.

Cecchine, imo, and in the opinion of a lot of people, ie.- including Lou Thesz, probably an even bigger icon than Karl Gotch...Cecchine is very good at cacc.

But he's not Karl Gotch.
7/3/09 8:53 AM
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supersaiyan
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nice post of info man ^^^
7/3/09 12:06 PM
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de braco
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Workman is right about a little research paying dividends.Cacc never was endangered,much less extinct.As for Cecchine owning the videos in question,Aso,Schalles,Fujiwara and various sambo vids,so what.Why wouldn't he try to broaden his knowledge.I've been collecting videos since they became commercialy available in the early eighties looking for new strategys and holds.Believe me,those fckr's were hard to get and expensive.People who are interested in cacc should be grateful to cecchine for assembling laoh and making it available.
7/3/09 12:20 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Agreed, de braco.

You don't have to endorse Cecchine's personality/character/history to recognize and acknowledge his contribution to cacc.
7/3/09 12:40 PM
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supersaiyan
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Victor Parlati - Agreed, de braco.

You don't have to endorse Cecchine's personality/character/history to recognize and acknowledge his contribution to cacc.



-

i can agree withthat part... i cant really let ppl (and their personal issues ) be a factor towards me as n individual...on the other side if i am paying for a service as (Atomic ) was telling us....i want my service or refund for the investment regardless who it is.

i actually thought Tonys vid were topnotch (original or not) but i dont want to be touting a product thinking its from one source but is actually SOMEONES work of another end of the stick ya know.

i think and am certain EVERYONE has faults more or less to the next person but if they have something ooffer that interests me i will go for it.

i think Atomic is just pissed that Tony comes off as a thieve and money grubbing suction orifice n there lays the biggest prob and with that reason alone i would not deal with ANyone as well. A touch of class and charactoer goes a long way imo. Truth be told when i see vids for combat fighting or whatever ... the last thing i am concerned about is the integrity of the person endorsing/teachingthe video..iam looking at the info value that the vid has to offer.

Perhaps if i fouund out somethiong beforehand or afterwards about the "said" person it could sway my opinion to pursue or not pursue the product possibly.

to each their own imo.
7/3/09 1:11 PM
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e. kaye
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 Read the Bullshido thread and all will be revealed.
7/3/09 4:21 PM
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supersaiyan
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checking now
7/3/09 4:32 PM
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supersaiyan
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i cant even get on the bullshido site??!! i have tried like 15 times andit wont load up ...hmm? bullsido.net or bullshido forums = 0 results.
7/3/09 4:32 PM
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supersaiyan
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u have a link or url ekaye?
7/5/09 10:34 PM
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e. kaye
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 http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69244
7/6/09 11:00 AM
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supersaiyan
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thanks man
7/6/09 1:50 PM
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supersaiyan
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damn ...i was just over there scanning through JESUS man its like (up to where i got to) 200 pages?!?? its deep over there on teh discussion...whew my work cut out to do over there tho.



from what i can gather so far it seems tony is the REAL DEAL (as i always figured) with Catch as say Roger Gracie with BJJ...takeyour pick and/learn from both as both arts are legit. Nothing is better than being a hyrbrid all around BADASS if you ask me .

there were VERY interesting issues and rundowns as far as catch in general along with BJJ so i think its all the worth to read that link ekaye posted generously. I beleive any doubters,haters or skeptical types would gain something about catch/or at least see Tony ina different light.

I cant say what the deal its with all the bad business practices amounted on Tony's behalf is about tho.

i think people will find some rather interesting things at bULLshido's site on this very topic and is worth the read.

one thing i DID NOT know was MOST of if not ALL his seminars or events were AT ..(guess where?) BJJ academies. How thats for showing/sharing his knowledge no less agains the VERY art that causes nonstop warring over. Thats BALLS n GUTS all the way. i dont want to spoil it but lets just say he has respect from BJJ blackbelts with his style. THAT is testiment enough.

ss
7/6/09 2:00 PM
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e. kaye
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 Thank  you.
7/6/09 6:57 PM
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AtomicElbow
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supersaiyan - 
-

i can agree withthat part... i cant really let ppl (and their personal issues ) be a factor towards me as n individual...on the other side if i am paying for a service as (Atomic ) was telling us....i want my service or refund for the investment regardless who it is.

i actually thought Tonys vid were topnotch (original or not) but i dont want to be touting a product thinking its from one source but is actually SOMEONES work of another end of the stick ya know.

i think Atomic is just pissed that Tony comes off as a thieve and money grubbing suction orifice n there lays the biggest prob and with that reason alone i would not deal with ANyone as well. A touch of class and charactoer goes a long way imo. .


On the letter Billy Wicks wrote to Jake Shannon, he says that "Super Hooker" (Cecchine) fooled both him and Thesz. He also says to Jake "you were right. he is a deadbeat dad."
Jake knew cecchine was a deadbeat dad first because he actually wrote a character reference letter when cecchine got hit with the paternity suit. cecchine bragged about getting away with only having to pay $150 a month in child support. The judge wouldnt have let him get away with that if he had any significant income. He doesnt, which is why he lives with and is supported by his mother, who actually does have a job. But she has to be in her mid to late 60's now- how much longer is she expected to support him?! if cecchine ever did get a job, he'd have a paycheck that child support could be automatically deducted from, like taxes. He knows this. If he can offer to teach seminars, then he is physically capable of getting a job. But but having his internet ICWA (or whatever it is) business as his source of income, the state can't make automatic deductions because his income isnt regular.

cecchine has nothing- no marketable job skills, education or anything. Catch wrestling is his only hope to be somebody. Problem is his son only turns 8 later this year- cecchine will still have another 10 yrs of child support to pay. So he'll be 55 when he'll be free (unless the child dies or the mother marries someone else). Social security will be gone by then and if even by a long shot it isnt cecchine hasnt been paying SS taxes so he wont be entitled. Hes going to be on welfare- just another person wanting a handout, taking money earned by other people just as he did with the ICWA

He stole from ALL of the members of the ICWA- no one can dispute that. You read that bullshido thread- how about you get the other side. Ask scuffler about the videos he copied from, or ask Billy Wicks or his students about whats wrong with the LAOH tapes. Bill Cogswell was ICWA VP, his statements hold more credibility than anyone who was not there

We know Phil Jackson or Bobby Knight are great coaches because of the results they produced. after 10 years, cecchine has produced absolutely nothing. He never has and never will. No amount of internet posting or double talk by his supporters can change the fact that he is a deadbeat dad who has accomplished absolute nothing as an instructor (through his students) or as a person.
7/6/09 7:03 PM
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e. kaye
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 Yawn.   Get over it,  your "sources" are bullshit.
7/6/09 11:13 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Edited: 07/06/09 11:16 PM
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Tony Cecchine did NOT fool Lou Thesz. This is a serious load of bullshit! Lou Thesz was one of THE very best cacc wrestlers who ever lived. Nobody was going to fool him into thinking that so-and-so is an actual "hooker" (the highest acolade a catch wrestler can have - meaning that he is an expert at submission wrestling)...

when in fact they were a fraud, with no real catch wrestling submission skills.

Give it up, Atomic Elbow. You're wasting your time with this charge.
7/7/09 2:14 AM
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supersaiyan
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Atomic

is there any info you can give me on JAke Shields and Scientific Wrestling.

as i had mentioned earlier i do have Tonys dvds allof them except that new set he just came out with like a month ago or so this year.

What material would u suggest other than W A R.

i would like to get some and compare with Tonys stuff n see if there is a similarity or difference.

i am really an openminded type and feel i can learn from both Jake and Tony's stuff. i don t want to slight one over the other due to ignorance on my part n miss the whole picture.

although you seem to know more about tonys character n all i was wondering have you met him in person. like i mentioned i want the value of anything =the value in return or gimme my money back. Honesly i know nothing of him as far as the negativity factor going on but i did get a good customer service when purchasing the dvds and 2 emails responsing to if i had been sent the dvds i sent out for

both times he responed by email that they were sent n all that. i was quite shocked of the cordial return on his part considering everything about him. This kinda reminds me of matt furey being bashed FOREVER overhis material as far back as almost 10 years ago when i first heard of him(and Tony).

if you dont mind me asking is your training in catch mostly with the affiliates at SW ? I heard alot of bashing of them as well that jake was BS n etc etc...

i think ina small part Tony is getting heat but it seems overall CAtch in general is getting the beatdown across the board in comparison to BJJif that is what this is really about.

i have yet to hear positive about CAtch from anyone ( save the forum "in the know" defensive stance). Even within the cirles of cAtch is alot of warring going on Jake vs Matt vs Tony which i think is killing or polluting it all together.
they need to come together as a collective in tthe big fight to save catch and make it grow faster and more crisp. the last thing CAtch needs ( as brittle and hard to promote as it is) is nagging little insider silly diatribes amongst each other/


i for one think its an asset to any other grappling ppl may know -including myself. I cant tell you how man times i have come across the BIG -3's jargon over the years. I for one really love and see a benefit to catch and can look at it subjectively having a grappling background and can relate to it. However to a new person who may be seeing it for the first time and have interest they can easily be sway and pushed to BJJ in a heartbeat since its popular and easy to see in demo/comp vastly over catch.

this reason alone is what can be a catalystic downfall for the growth of catch when the newbs see bickering arguments over catch WITHIN the catch lineage along with "authorities" discrediting one over another . its like kids in a sandbox fighting over "this" sand because "that" sand over there is better when its all in the same box and everyone in it has played with ALL the sand as well.

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