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Wrestling UnderGround >> Wrestlers and Catch Wrestling


8/19/09 10:04 PM
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ocianain
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scuffler - Jeff G did not refute the claims against Cecchine. What he did was threaten legal action against people, myself included, who no longer really gave a rats ass in order to silence them. He also posted personal attacks and twisted words. He is a skilled internet debater who was working with the fear of legal action as a hammer.

I gave him (Jeff G) a strong lead, the fact that Radwan's daughter is still living and "may" well have info. He claimed he would check into it. Never heard anymore of it? He either didn't like what she had to say, didn't find her, or she knew nothing.

At this point I have lost interest in everything except what works, and real life has gotten in the way of even that. I have encounter some health issues and in light of that all this seems so frivolous. Maybe just go train? Compete if you want to, don't if you have no interest, and do nothing that you will regret on your deathbed.

I do regret the implosion of the old catch forum, I still think it could have worked if people weren't so sensitive. You can disagree and argue without getting your panties in a wad, taking your ball and going home.

I don't agree with certifications, but overall I like what Jake is doing for catch with the oldtimers. It breaks my heart to think that soon all of these guys will be gone, and their knowledge with it.

Team Ironlock, now based in Jonesville Va. and team FAST of Norton Va. are heavily catch influenced, usually put 6 to 10 fighter on every local show and probably win 80 to 90 percent of their fights, maybe more if you don't count the fights they have with each other. They are big fish in a small pond but they do compete and they compete a lot and they win a lot.

At this point in my life I don't really care to "debate" the Cecchine matter, defend the business practices of anyone else, or even be a defender of catch. I just want to enjoy what time I have left in life and try to finally do a few things I've put off for a long time.

God bless all in the catch community, including those I've argued with. I've never taken anything personal.


Scuffler, Sorry to hear about your health issues, you're a good man and top notch historian; always enjoyed our talks. I'll keep you in my prayers. It could be worse,,,,,you cold be Jeremy Frost! God how I hated that"man."
8/19/09 10:28 PM
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ocianain
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de braco - It's gotten to you to.


The CACC cult is as seductive and intoxicating as the Black Lotus! Once one imbibes the sweet nectar one loses oneself in Stygian darkness, strange shapes pass before you, eldritch horror rise from the viscous ichor.

Now Jake is into mnemonics(which is cool, been reading your Yates Jake? If you're good, real good, you'll memorize The Tain) and mind power (stop with the eye, even Tony didn't go there!
8/19/09 10:36 PM
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ocianain
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de braco - It's gotten to you to.


Oh...by the way....its, too!

FRRROOOOSSSSSSTTTTTTTT!

I know you never put the money in the basket!

Liar!!!!!!!

You bastard!!!!!! I'm using multiple exclamation marks!!!!! ARGHHHHH!!!
8/20/09 12:04 PM
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de braco
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I never use the word too because i'll be dead in the cold,cold ground before i recogonize the scriblings of Oscar Wilde.
8/26/09 12:05 PM
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sly fox
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ive only just made a return to the UG its amazing to see the same old subject again of tonys stuff, and a bit disappointing
8/31/09 12:59 PM
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Doko
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Edited: 08/31/09 1:05 PM
Member Since: 8/24/09
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I used to be on Cecchine's catch forum and I was personally really disappointed when the Forum went under..i thought he was a really knowledgeable guy. It's people like me (who has done and said nothing negative about him) that loses out when other people have to insult him. QUIT INSULTING CECCHINE.
8/31/09 8:42 PM
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Jeff Malott
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 take scuffler's advice......................................time wasted is time lost!
9/1/09 2:48 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Edited: 09/01/09 2:49 PM
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Like I said much earlier in this thread, a shotgun approach to learning catch wrestling is the way to go. There's room enough under the tent for everybody.

Forget about bad mouthing this guy or that guy. Just take a look AT EVERYTHING AVAILABLE, bring it onto the mat, and keep what works for you.

American catch, Wigan catch, Scientific Wrestling this, Sakuraba and Barnett that...

look at it all and piece it all together. Learn how to beat the guard and use some guard, learn this, work with that.The politics of catch as catch can wrestling has been a disaster in recent years. Time for a change.
9/1/09 7:14 PM
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Doko
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Victor,

I basically agree with your advice...Cecchine is not the only source of CACC, but in my opinion he was the best. The man seemed to know a lot about a lot. History, Conditioning, Technique, Psychology...he had deep knowledge on it all.

I can't afford to join his new thing so now i'm without a mentor. I respected him so much that in the end he was the only person i listened too.

I guess he could get a bit defensive, but i just put that down to him developing zero tolerance towards people attacking him (and to be honest i couldn't blame him) but he is what he is, just like we all are what we are...but if i learned anything about him from reading all his posts - he won't be returning to open discussion forums again. Never ever.
9/2/09 12:19 AM
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Victor Parlati
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Do some checking on this and some other forums, both past and presently active, and you'll be hard pressed to find a bigger Cecchine supporter than me. (I can name one or two guys, but that's about it).

But I have to call it like it is. As much as I love most of Tony's material, and his ability to communicate as an instructor/coach...

the fact is that Tony Cecchine is NOT the end-all-and-be-all of catch as catch can wrestling.

He's a big fish in the catch pond, but that's as far as it goes.

And furthermore, I'm really disappointed by his stand in recent years regarding "American" catch and Lancashire/Wigan catch.

The distinctions are a load of crap, and are designed to give a subtle but yet very detectable idea that the "American" catch that he does is THE REAL DEAL - while Lancashire/Wigan is basically a bunch of showholds.

Nonsense.

Like I said, enough with the politics, no matter where it comes from.
9/2/09 9:09 AM
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Doko
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Edited: 09/02/09 9:54 AM
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Again i would have to agree with what you said, however there is more to it than first appears. I was on his forum since back in the ezboard days and i noticed a shift in his stance towards the 'differences'...at first he would just point out things like they don't 'use the twist' and how they appeared more defensive whilst he was more aggresive and tighter. It was only after he fell out with Furey (who hooked up with Gotch) and some veiled attacks on Cecchine and 'his' Style came from there side, Cecchine retaliated (like i said he could get a bit defensive) and attacked 'their' style and the differences became two different styles. But all that aside, i don't have a problem with anything Cecchine said; he called it the way he sees it and he's entitled to his opinion..just like Furey, Gotch and everybody on this forum are entitled to their opinion.

For me..ultimately there are no differences just individual differences, everybody is different, some are tighter, some looser, some more 'entertaining' (this mentality usually comes from wanting to entertain the people and letting them 'see' what is happening) whilst others are not concerned with such things and just want to win by the most effective means possible. Some include the twist and some don't, some are better than others... but the holds are the same. It's the same art. And since it's the art of 'a thousand holds' there is much scope for differences.
9/2/09 10:09 AM
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de braco
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No one has gotten the snap/tap set yet?
9/2/09 3:41 PM
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e. kaye
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 I have it, but have not had time to get throughit all.
9/2/09 4:17 PM
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PoundforPound
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Edited: 09/02/09 4:20 PM
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Victor Parlati - And furthermore, I'm really disappointed by his stand in recent years regarding "American" catch and Lancashire/Wigan catch.

The distinctions are a load of crap, and are designed to give a subtle but yet very detectable idea that the "American" catch that he does is THE REAL DEAL - while Lancashire/Wigan is basically a bunch of showholds.


The show holds thing is wrong. But I think there were definitely differences between the catch that evolved in America and Lancashire.

Atholl Oakeley in his book said that America had the best wrestlers when he came over here from England in the 1920s or 1930s.

A similar type of evolution happened in American boxing vs. British boxing during the same period. Jack Dempsey for one points out differences in stances and in philosohpy (the English standing more upright for better defense, while in America there was more of crouch and semicrouch plus a tendency to be aggressive.)
9/2/09 11:25 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Edited: 09/02/09 11:51 PM
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Glad we're on the same page about the show holds, PoundforPound, but a lot of time has gone by since the days when there were any significant distinctions between American and Lancashire catch - and assuming that we're looking upon Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson as the most important bearers of the Lancashire/Wigan catch torch in recent years. (Who else could it be?)

For example, when Karl Gotch first came to America around 1958-59 and started wrestling professionally, he eventually got to know some of the better American catch wrestlers, and upon some occasions remarked, IIRC, how the American melting pot seemed to produce a more dynamic catch style than what he experienced in England...

and of course Billy Robinson came later from Wigan, England and spent many years as pro wrestler in the U.S. as well.

So whatever those dynamic innovations of the Americans may have been, I would imagine it's safe to assume that as time went by both of these two top Wigan wrestlers picked up whatever they thought was valuable and used it.

And in time both men went to Japan and spent many years teaching catch to the judo/jiu jitsu inclined Japanese - and by now we've seen what Yoshiaki Fugiwara can do (Gotch's top student, and he's excellent) - and some of what Billy Robinson eventually taught to guys like Kazushi Sakuraba and Josh Barnett.

So it seems to me that whatever the "significant" catch differences between Lancashire and U.S. catch may have been back in the 1920's/30's - what could those differences possibly be here in 2009?

After so many years of various melting pots coming to boil?

I suspect not much at all.
9/2/09 11:37 PM
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PoundforPound
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Edited: 09/02/09 11:52 PM
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I firmly believe, as you wrote, that "the American melting pot seemed to produce a more dynamic catch style" than what Karl experienced in England. Just like it did for boxing where there is more evidence to look through.

But when Gotch and Robinson came over catch was pretty much dead already. Outside of Lou Thesz and maybe a few others. So I don't know how much of the American style they would have picked up.
9/2/09 11:57 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Edited: 09/02/09 11:59 PM
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That's a good point, but then again Karl Gotch wrestled Lou Thesz about 5-6 times, didn't he? And the two of them tag teamed together in Japan in the early 1970's as well. So isn't it safe to assume that Karl got to see quite a bit of what the best American catch wrestler at the time (Thesz) could do?

And according to Gene Lebell, he (Gene) learned some submissions from Gotch as well as from Thesz, so it's safe to assume that Gotch also saw Lebell's catch arsenal as well.
9/3/09 3:05 AM
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PoundforPound
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Edited: 09/03/09 3:10 AM
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It's speculation at best on both our ends.

Gotch and Thesz were doing pro wrestling matches together not real CACC matches. And there was always an undercurrent of competition between the two as to who was the best shooter in the business. I don't think Lou would have tipped his hand and shown his rival everything he could do. And vice versa.
9/3/09 1:25 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Edited: 09/03/09 1:30 PM
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Again, you make some good points. God, I would loved to have seen the match that Thesz beat Gotch with the double wristlock - the match that Lou always claimed was a double cross!

But getting back to the alleged differences: as things stand today, do you really think there's any SIGNIFICANT differences between what Tony Cecchine does and, say, Yoshiaki Fugiwara? Or beween Tony and the vids that are available now with Billy Robinson?

I see some differences in that certain submissions are taught by Tony that might not be found on Fugiwara's vids, and vice versa, (and some slight differences in how they might finish some subs that they both use), but as for actual
STYLE DIFFERENCES, (aside from some guard work that Fugiwara uses), I don't see any real stylistic differences.

Do you?
9/3/09 4:14 PM
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PoundforPound
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As things stand now, I do see differences but in favor of Robinson's Wigan style. Seems to me like he has a more profound understanding of the whole game than Tony.

And I say that being a big fan of what I learned on Cecchine's tapes.

Billy is teaching in Arkansas. I would head over there to train in a second if I had the opportunity.
9/3/09 4:29 PM
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e. kaye
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 You are underestimating TOny's depth of knowledge.   I have never seen him stumped.
9/3/09 4:50 PM
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PoundforPound
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Maybe so, e.kaye. I can only go on what I've seen of him on video.

Robinson was trained in the old way in a gym with a long wrestling tradition. And it shows. Tony is very good but I just don't see the same level of expertise there.
9/3/09 8:11 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Edited: 09/03/09 8:12 PM
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Well Tony admittedly has always had very little takedown game, as his back problems prevented it. I would imagine that this also affected his clinch work as well. In fact, In his vid, "TAKIN' IT TO THE FEET", his student Bruce basically demos almost the entire vid - with Tony explaining and doing just a bit here and there.
9/4/09 1:05 AM
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e. kaye
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 Fair enough.  I have had a lot of hands on with Tony relative to most, outside of the old Chicago crew.
9/9/09 12:54 AM
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de braco
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It's high time for the charge of the Shannon brigade. For the love of God can't somebody think of the children

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