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Weapons UnderGround >> Laser grips?


1/24/08 9:42 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 24-Jan-08 09:47 AM
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I've got a S&W .38 snub that I carry and keep in the bedroom. I was thinking of putting some laser grips on it to improve its ability to put holes in the right places, because the sights stink. There are two types out there for my gun, Crimson Trace and LaserMax.
Crimson Trace seem like better grips and have an impossible-to-miss on switch.


Laser Max puts the beam much closer to the boreline and cost about half of the CTs.


Anyone have strong feelings about either brand name?
1/29/08 11:54 PM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 29-Jan-08
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I worked in gunshops for about 8 years, and from what I've seen from both companies: lasermax is the retarded cousin of the crimson trace. The CT's would work the entire distance of the Gander Mountain I worked at (60 yards to front wall from gun counter). That said, while laser grips are cool, you don't need them. Practice with the sights on the gun and you can get good hits out to 50 yards (I can hit a 1'x1' steel plate at 40 yards consistantly with my Taurus Titanium 85 in 38 spl, and keep them in the silhouette at 50). In close, you won't use the sights anyways, so practice your close range point shooting to get a good feel for where the gun will hit. If you just want them though, get the CT's and enjoy them, they have a fairly high cool factor.
1/30/08 10:51 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 30-Jan-08
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Cool factor counts (a little). That was one of the things I liked about the Lasermax. It looks like the Borg assimilated a S&W.
But, I do appreciate the feedback. I think I will go with the big brand. I'm seeing older CTs for $170 on eBay. That's more reasonable than $300.

One reason I'm thinking about the grips is for my wife. She's got access to it for emergencies, but isn't that interested in putting in more time at the range. I'm hoping that with the grips, she'd be more likely to hit something with very little practice.
1/30/08 5:44 PM
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Edited: 30-Jan-08
Member Since: 09/06/2002
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Can't stand the CT for two reasons. 1) It forces me to change the way I squeeze the handle. Very small change, but I don't like it 2) If you believe in keeping your finger off the trigger, it's really easy to block the laser with your trigger finger.
2/3/08 10:00 PM
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swmnbjjer1
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Edited: 03-Feb-08
Member Since: 09/23/2007
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i hate laser grips just like the guys says above, my finger stays off triger till i need to fire and that always blocks the laser
2/4/08 3:00 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 04-Feb-08
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But I would think you wouldn't even want to be using the laser until you're ready to fire.
2/5/08 1:25 AM
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Edited: 05-Feb-08
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Too late by then. Plus you lose the intimidation factor.
2/6/08 12:54 AM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 06-Feb-08
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Intimidation shouldn't be a factor in choosing any accessory for a firearm. Some people might get intimidated by the little red dot and freeze up, others might empty their gun into you as fast as they can while moving laterally to get away from that little dot. If you're not an LEO, and your gun is pointed at someone, you've gone way past intimidation and you're either fighting for your life or shouldn't be carrying a gun. re: trigger finger placement Personally, I follow and teach "off target = off trigger, on target = on trigger" whether you are using sights or firing from close retention. I still stand by my early statements that they aren't necessary. They were supposed to be a tool to use at the ranges where you wouldn't be using your sights to help you get more accurate hits. At those ranges though, you don't have time or distance to raise your gun to eye level and use either sights or some form of index, much less have time to "chase the dot" all over your target. The biggest lie about laser sights: they DO NOT make you more accurate. Yes, you can see the little dot on your target, but without trigger finger discipline (which comes from practice and practice alone) you won't be able to put the little lead thing where the little dot was, so who cares where the little dot was in the first place? The best use of laser sights is a dry fire training tool. You can really see that little dot move around if you're milking your grip, jerking your trigger etc. Couple that with a diagnostic target and you can catch bad habits pretty quickly and easily. If your wife doesn't want to practice with the gun, laser sights won't help her shoot better, the only thing they will do is make her take longer to chase that dot around until it's on her target or worse: give her a false sense of security because she has a gun with that "magic laser" on it so she can hit anything. The only way to make someone into a better shooter is through regular practice, dry fire practice is the best form, so if you two can get together an do say 20-30 good dry fires every night before bed, you'll be a lot better off than most people out there. If you're worried about the home invasion scenario, other solutions could be to get a shotgun (20 gauge will work here if recoil concerns are present), load it up with reduced recoil buckshot and teach her to fire it from under her tucked arm instead of her shoulder so it doesn't bruise her up. It's a lot easier to tuck a shotgun under her arm and line her body up with a target than learn to shoot a small revolver. Or buy a good sized dog (german shepherd, doberman etc) which works without any practice and can be quite enjoyable to have around. just my $0.02, good luck
2/6/08 10:23 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 06-Feb-08
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Wow. That was thorough. Thanks.
2/6/08 8:51 PM
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Edited: 06-Feb-08
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Skpotamus, I agree with everything you said except this part: "If you're not an LEO, and your gun is pointed at someone, you've gone way past intimidation and you're either fighting for your life or shouldn't be carrying a gun." Civilians can and should point use their guns for intimidation for the same reason LEOs should: to control the situation short of actually using lethal force. A lot of people (perhaps even most) who have used a gun to prevent a crime did so by merely brandishing.
2/6/08 9:52 PM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 06-Feb-08
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Viewtype, check your local laws and be careful if that ever comes up, in many places simply pointing a firearm is considered deadly or lethal force. I personally know a guy who did just that when confronted at a bar by 4 people (he was the DD for his friends that night and the other guys were out looking for trouble), he pointed his gun at them and ordered them to back off, he then called the police himself. The prosecutor got ahold of it and charged him for "criminal intimidation" for pointing the gun and not using it. The reasoning was that since simply pointing a firearm at someone is considered deadly force, then pointing one and not using it was reckless behavior since he "obviously" had no reason to point the gun in the first place, or else he would have fired it. They also argued that he should have left or tried to leave before drawing the firearm (despite the fact that he was surrounded). He ended up getting off on the charges, but it took about a year and a half, and a lot of $$$ While using a firearm to intimidate can and does work quite often, what do you do when it doesn't work? Some people freeze when they see a gun, others attack. In real world scenario's, you're probably going to be very close to an attacker (conversation distance). If you draw a firearm and don't intend to use it right away, and your attacker(s) go on the offensive, there's a good chance you'll get tackled, stabbed or shot before you can react to their movement, and fire. I personally feel that if you are drawing a deadly tool (gun, knife, etc), then it should be a last resort and you should be using it as soon as it is safely deployed (clear of holster, clear of you, etc). Just what I teach, YMMV. :o)
2/7/08 9:05 PM
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Edited: 07-Feb-08
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In my jurisdiction, the law clearly states that brandishing and/or threatening to use a weapon (even a firearm) does not constitute deadly force.
2/11/08 4:18 AM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 11-Feb-08
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VT, out of curiosity, what would be considered deadly force in your jurisdiction? I ask because I'm curious what the meathead politicians have done to the people in your jurisdiction and your rights. If pointing a gun or threatening someone doesnt' constitute deadly force, than would you using deadly force in defence be justified? IE, someone tries to mug you with a knife or gun, if they haven't actually stabbed or shot at at you yet, could you fire at ehm or deploy a knife on them without legal repurcussions?
2/11/08 12:12 PM
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Edited: 11-Feb-08
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I should have been more clear. Brandishing and threatening in SELF-DEFENSE is not considered deadly force. Sorry for not being clear.
2/11/08 9:29 PM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 11-Feb-08
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Ahh, i see. Sorry. I've found some jurisdictions where there was no distinction to the prosecutors office. I actually heard the prosecutor tell some officers I was training "there is no such thing as self defense, if someone pulls out a knife or gun for any reason, arrest them, same thing goes for any type of fight", thankfully, that person isn't the prosecutor anymore...
2/12/08 1:17 AM
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Edited: 12-Feb-08
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Cops and prosecutors rarely know the laws regarding use of force, and even more rarely are willing to apply it properly. The government likes its monopoly on violence.
2/13/08 8:17 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 13-Feb-08
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Sounds a bit like a "prosecute them all, let the jury sort them out" mentality, too.
That keeps a DA's office busy and staffed.
3/17/08 11:19 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 17-Mar-08
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I got my CT grips this weekend. Point-n-shoot dryfire practice is much more exciting and the visual feedback is awesome.
Luckily, my natural off-the-trigger finger position does not block the beam.
Can't wait to try it on the range, but I'm happy so far.

Oh, and the cool factor is off the hook.
3/24/08 12:36 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
Member Since: 07/06/2000
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If you're not an LEO, and your gun is pointed at someone, you've gone way past intimidation and you're either fighting for your life or shouldn't be carrying a gun. Amen.
3/26/08 7:58 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 26-Mar-08 08:09 AM
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At the range:
After only a few tweaks with the teeny-tiny allen wrenches, I was able to get this 15 shot group at 50 feet. I couldn't even reliably hit the paper previously. (I have no problem getting good groups with iron sights on my Single Six, though.)

Grouping with new laser grips

The grips were able to show me how I was jerking down in anticipation of the recoil. It showed me my grip wasn't stable during trigger pull, too. I changed my grip, made sure the trigger break was a surprise, and suddenly everything fell into that acceptable circle.
The accuracy of the beam was astounding. When done right, the red dot is suddenly replaced by a black hole.
I'm very happy with the purchase.
3/26/08 9:45 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
Member Since: 07/06/2000
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That's really nice shooting at 50 feet, FUCK!
3/26/08 10:47 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
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Shooting very slowly.

Still, I couldn't hit anything before.

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