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Weapons UnderGround >> Question about Dog Brothers?


1/24/08 12:39 PM
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dnery
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Edited: 24-Jan-08
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Saw the show last night on NGC, good stuff. On the show they said the dog brothers started a revolution by training without pads and going all out and not holding back. How is the dog brothers revolutionary on their training method? I hope they're talking about as far as training with no pads in America. Because when we spar here in Philippines,(as far as I remember as early 80's) we don't use pads either. Maybe I din't hear it right, Can someone please explain this to me. Thanks in advance
1/24/08 2:54 PM
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ryangruhn
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Edited: 24-Jan-08
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I think this is in regards to the WEKAF movement. Most WEKAF tournaments wore/still wear the pillow coats and helmets. When we fight in Dog Brothers Gatherings most fighters only wear a fencing mask and small gloves. I wore elbow pads in my first gathering but them seemed to get in the way so I went without them for the last few gatherings. I wear street hockey gloves which only go up to the wrist as apposed to hockey gloves which can cover most of the forearm and some people opt to go with simple working gloves that are simply fabric. Many have gone with no gloves at all as well. Gruhn
1/24/08 5:25 PM
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ReneH
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Edited: 24-Jan-08
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Somebody forgot to mention the PFS boys also!
1/24/08 9:19 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 24-Jan-08
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Woof Dnery: A few things to consider: a) We did not have final say so; b) The way I remember the passage in question, it was in reference to the American context at the time we started the Dog Brothers. The show will be airing again so please feel free to check for yourself; c) One of the areas in which I was beating my head against a wall was in my repeated request to have a section saying that the Art came from the Philippines, how it came to America and how we received it; d) Also ignored was my repeated request to have a section showing what is involved in this kind of fighting e.g. the importance of hitting the hand, the skill in hitting and maintaining range, the skill in closing, and what is involved should the fight close. I repeatedly asked that more than 5-8 seconds be shown of a given fight and that sometimes slo motion be used so as to enable the audience to appreciate what is going on. In all these things I was mostly ignored. Does this answer your question? Crafty Dog
1/24/08 10:55 PM
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dnery
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Edited: 24-Jan-08
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Yes, it does. Thank you for the answer.
1/25/08 6:39 AM
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Steven Lefebvre
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Edited: 25-Jan-08 06:44 AM
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Hi dnery Always take what is presented on a T.V show as just a partial view of what was actually being put out by the group. The show was good but is always trimmed to make it more attractive to the general public. Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net www.Sayoc.com
2/1/08 11:27 PM
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Sled Dog
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Edited: 01-Feb-08
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The reality is that in the early 1980's there was not much realistic stick fighting. There was either too much padding or no allowance for striking the hand or no thrusting or touch point karate type tournaments. We started to figure out what might actually work in all those techniques we had been taught. I have been doing this since 1981 so I feel that I have a frame of reference for these opinions. The PFS boys? Marc Denny was a PFS boy. He never brought the subject up. They were always welcome. Still are. What it come down to is that most everything we had been told about our deadliness and killer moves was BS. What it also showed was that, just like boxing, contact is a great training method. Sure there were some injuries, but with that harder contact there came a higher consiousness. You started to "get it". Thats all it was about. We weren't looking for notoriety, just a better way.
2/3/08 3:29 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 03-Feb-08
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phil - come on - you know you were doing it with tuhon in NYC LONG (like 10 years? in the 70's) before eric moved to cali and introduced that kinda training at the inosanto academy
2/4/08 8:43 AM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 04-Feb-08
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http://dogbrothers.com/pages/bios_knaus.htm
2/4/08 4:28 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 04-Feb-08 07:00 PM
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interesting read - eric told me he fought no protection w/Leo in the article, he states he fought with tom bisio in with just fencing masks either way, eric brought it over from NY before he ever met marc and the fact the they used a bigger head gear and lighter sticks doesnt mean they werent fighting full contact
2/6/08 8:41 AM
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pelajar
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Edited: 06-Feb-08
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I just wanted to add Tuhon Bill's addition to Mr. Knaus' commentary. I feel that since he was mentioned his side deserves to be out there - even though I know that's really not the essence of this thread. Also, just to be clear, I do not question in any way the Dogbrothers' immense contribution to the FMA. Thank you. -wes tasker From: "BILL MCGRATH" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:57:59 -0800 Subject: eskrima: Minor corrections in PT history I just wanted to correct some minor points in Erik's otherwise excellent post on his early days training with Tom Bisio and Grandmaster Gaje. Erik wrote that "Billy came along about a month or so after" ...he began training with Tom... and "while I was around was more of a student of Eddie Jaffri's than of Leo's." I think it would be more accurate to say that Erik first met me about a month or so after he started training with Tom. Some background should clarify things. Grandmaster Leo Gaje came to the U.S. in 1972. Frank Ortega, Mike and Danny Ducalas were among the original group Leo taught back then. In 1973 Leo moved around the corner from my house in Corona Queens, NY. In addition to his adult class, he was teaching a small group of teenage boys out of the garage of his apartment building and charging $2.00 a week. My parents could not afford to pay for my classes (this was 73 remember) so I had to wait until I turned 14 and could get a paper route to pay for class. By this time inflation had caused the price to go up to $2.50 per week. I began training with Leo in February of 1975. In the summer of 75 Leo dropped the garage class and I moved into the general class which was held in the basements in a number of Filipino businesses. Up until my moving to the main class Leo had me training on footwork and empty hand techniques. At the same time as this Leo was making frequent trips giving seminars in other cities. This is how Erwin Ballarta and Akmeed Bouraca began their training when Leo gave a seminar in Detroit in 1975. In the summer of 1976 Leo moved the class to the Philippine Consulate in Manhattan. I believe that this is when Tom started training. Erik is right when he says that Tom was Leo's best student and I think all of us expected Leo to one day put him in charge of the system. (I think I am where I am today more due to longevity and a good memory for technique than for anything else). I think the thing that creates confusion about PT history is that Leo would often have 2 or 3 classes going on simultaneously in different parts of the city. In 77 he moved into a large apartment building and got me a job as a lifeguard at the healthclub's pool there. The guys I trained with in Leo class at the healthclub were usually different guys then the ones I trained with in Leo's classes in Manhattan and different still from the guys I trained with at the school Leo taught at in Jamaica Queens. It was not unusual for Leo to place a different emphasis on techniques given at each location. Weeknights I would often have dinner with Leo and his family and he would give a different emphasis in informal after-dinner workouts then he would in regular classes. I think he was simply being a good teacher and giving each group what he felt they needed. This may explain Leo's emphasis on finesse in Erik's training. After a few months with Tom I am sure Erik was hitting with good power and Erik never had a problem being aggressive, so Leo worked with him on strategy and technique. If you remember me playing badguy in magazine photos of Grandmaster Gaje in the early 80's you can see how skinny I was. Therefore Leo had me work on power developtment hitting the heavy bag and tires. I was always more interested in knife work than tournaments so Leo had me specialize in knife technique. If he liked you then you got not only what you needed but what you wanted as well. Erik also mentions that at the time he thought I was more of Eddie Jaffri's student than Leo's. From the time we first met Eddie in 77 until I moved with Leo to Texas in 1982, I spent about the same amount of time training with each of them (Eddie shared an apartment with Leo and his family for a time in New York and their living room was often our training area for both Penchak and Pekiti), (continued in next post...)
2/6/08 8:41 AM
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pelajar
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Edited: 06-Feb-08
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(continuation from previous post...) Erik is right though when he says that, for most people, tournament sparring was different than that done "in house". Fighters tended to do what they believed would win them the tournament and depending on who was judging that often meant hitting your opponent as often as you could with little regard for anything else (The exceptions being Tom and Erwin who always showed the greatest amount of technique and finesse in their sparring. Every technique they learned you saw come out whenever they spared). During in house sparring however, Leo always emphasized treating your opponent's stick as if it were a blade, so you worked on hitting without getting hit. Another thing he emphasized was that you shouldn't get tied up too long with one opponent because of the danger from a second opponent. Therefore while he taught and allowed takedowns during sparing, any finishing technique on the ground had to be completed in 3 seconds. This didn't allow any time for most grappling techniques so finishers on the ground were mostly strikes. Armor for the advanced guys usually was just a Kendo helmet (good front protection but side and top protection was just a half inch of canvas). On our hands we had football armguards which left half your fingers and all of your thumb exposed. At the time it certainly felt like we were hitting hard. I remember Erwin Ballarta getting lifted completely off his feet by a thrust to the groin from Akmeed in the 77 tourney and that he landed on the floor like a deadman. I remember it taking several minutes to revive him. I remember Warren Brown getting a Witik across the side of the head during a 1980 tourney that penetrated the Kendo headgear and the blood that ran down onto his chest from the wound. I remember Mike Franciotti telling me of getting hit on the top of the head by a punyo that had the same bloody result. I remember stick "hickeys" and knots on my head. We must have been hitting pretty hard because I remember several knockouts during stick as well as knife sparring and the heavy steel bars on the Kendo headgear constantly getting bent out of shape. I hope none of my comments are taken as an attempt to diminish the Dog Brother's contribution to stickfighting. I think Erik's greatest contribution was to open the eyes of many people (especially those who never had spared full contact before) to the need to go "all out" to stop a determined opponent and to use every weapon and technique available. Erik's groundwork with the stick has opened up a new dimension to stick fighting that the blade oriented classic FMAs were lacking. The Dog Brother's gatherings have done for all FMAs what used to be done only in house against members of your own style, test yourself against another without having to adjust your technique to please a tournament judge. I think Erik and I will have to "agree to disagree" about how hard Pekiti-Tirsia people hit in the "old days" but we can still agree that Erik and the Dog Brothers have done for stickfighting what one system looking out for it's own interests would not have done-raise the bar for everyone. Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath
2/6/08 2:06 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 07-Feb-08 02:10 AM
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wes tasker great post - that seems more in line with what i remember erik telling me in person not sure why the descrepancy in on the DB site erik is a total stand up guy - i dont think he would intentionally mis-lead anyone for sake of promotion - especially, since he really has nothing to do with DBMA business - thats all marc i've only met bill one on occasion but know a lot of people who know him well - i dont think he's lying either
12/9/09 4:01 PM
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MobutuHari
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Edited: 12/09/09 4:10 PM
Member Since: 3/19/08
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Good question, to bad I never checked this site earlier when this was posted. Certainly DBMA and PT have been doing unpadded stick fights for a while and this is a good thing. However, there were many others as well I know of that were doing it, but weren't very public about it. Unfortunately, that kinda training didn't attract a good following, and in order to preserve their schools, they needed to do away with them or scale it down.

These are schools I know were doing full contact OR unpadded training for at least two decades here in HI or formerly from HI:
Pedoy (with bolos)
Tobosa (with bolos)
*sometimes drills done live bolo in the dark

Kali-Intra (Snookie Sanchez's) (more like stickboxing, though Snookie did a few demos using a live hatchet with his son and hot iron glowing rods, a few students did balisong demos as well throwing them up and catching them while sharp)
Early Villabrille-Largusa Kali members
*There was another underground group here I knew of as well that did it in the 90s.

The last major event I've seen unpadded drilling with knives and live sparring stickfights was at the Hawaii Plantation Village Festival circa mid 90's. Pedoy's female crew a few of them got cut drilling live bolos; from Snookie's crew - 1 concussion, 1 lacerated eyelid, and 1 cut face from Snookie's bullwhip (the guy moved when the candle was on his head and Snookie was blindfolded).

Unfortunately b/c of that all public demos of martial arts at the Festival were stopped completely, which was a shame b/c a lot of different styles (including sumo), came out and demo'ed the WHOLE day from 8am-5pm their martial arts.It was a great time.
12/11/09 8:22 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Member Since: 12/29/06
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Atienza crew does it,  Sayok does stick fighting, maybe even more intense than the DBrothers.

You have to be careful about watching demos or reportedly 'live' demos with FMA. It's so fast, and due to partner drills, like sumbrada and sinawali, it might look 'live' when it is, in fact rehearsed. You don't really need to 'see' to do tapping drills. There are some 'tricks' you can do (selectively sharpen the blades). Father-son demos will be carefully choreographed. No problem with that, just not as dangerous as it looks. Everyone tosses around their B-fly knives, bro.

> Tobosa..

Do you mean Raymond Tabosa? He was reportedly -very- good.

12/11/09 9:14 PM
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MobutuHari
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WidespreadPanic - Atienza crew does it,  Sayok does stick fighting, maybe even more intense than the DBrothers.

You have to be careful about watching demos or reportedly 'live' demos with FMA. It's so fast, and due to partner drills, like sumbrada and sinawali, it might look 'live' when it is, in fact rehearsed. You don't really need to 'see' to do tapping drills. There are some 'tricks' you can do (selectively sharpen the blades). Father-son demos will be carefully choreographed. No problem with that, just not as dangerous as it looks. Everyone tosses around their B-fly knives, bro.

> Tobosa..

Do you mean Raymond Tabosa? He was reportedly -very- good.


True, but I do know the difference. The drills were drills, but still very dangerous. The sparring was indeed true sparring. In the drills people still got seriously cut open and the sparring, people got hurt as well and quite often. Snookie, the Del Mars, and some of the Tobosa crew talked about how people got hurt, and how many did away with those training methods b/c they could not keep students. There is a famous GM now I remember who got knocked out pretty bad in a full-contact tourney in the 70s with a mere wetik, and another now GM who got floored with a swift front thrust in his face during the early stickfighting tourneys. This was sometime in the 70s.

As for injuries b/c of unpadded training - One instructor from the Pedoy system has bad vision now b/c a bolo knife ended up in his eye, which is why most of them practice with eye protection now, and why a particular blocking method (for him) is not something he teaches anymore. GM Jaime Abregana Sr. (CHA3 Kenpo), also well known in the FMA community here in HI, told a few of my older classmates that they too used to spar all unpadded and obviously suffered greatly for it when they got older. GM Lontayao (one of the early Villabrille KAA founders) has a terrible health issue now (possibly Parkinson's), which makes me wonder if it happened from all the tough beatings that happened getting hit unpadded.

Though some guys I knew from the old Villabrille-Largusa group told me of how a few of them used to get socks and sponges for hand protection and put industrial grade adhesive inside of them for grip when sparring. I don't know what they used for head protection. Some of them I know never did, and did get concussions and arthritis.

For the Father-Son demo it was a quick 1-5 'play' but Snookie Jr. was accidentally cut open with the hatchet, and so was a few balisong players in his school. I recall one of em doing it in the dark (they did this quite often so it was a normal thing). Well, they had to take him to the hospital and get a blood transfusion.

Pedoy and Tobosa crew used to drill live blades in the dark. I cannot recall anybody telling me if they got hurt, but to my knowledge I do not know if any continue that.
As for the B-fly knives, yeah I seen tons of guys do it here in Hawaii. We tried to fight legislation when then banned it here in '97, but lost.


As for Raymond Tobosa, yes he was very skilled from what I hear. There were many other skilled GM's back in Hawaii but nobody knows about them. I have a few friends whose grandfathers were territorial state champions in the full-contact stickfighting days here. I don't know why they called them 'death matches.' Not everybody died.

Some of them were:
1. - Alonso (don't know his last name, Cinco Terros style).
2. - Ramos (my granduncle's teacher . . some Ilokano style)
3. Santiago Toledo


*Sorry for the FRAT. I check this on work downtime. By the time I'm done, writing is prolific. But hopefully it's worth reading for everyone. I just want to give some info on some full contact stuff that has happened here. Though I am equally grateful the training mentality has continued elsewhere.

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