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PoliticalGround >> Would you ever vote for Obama?


1/28/08 11:58 AM
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bluedragon
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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Why do you hate your fellow Christian Bubblebass? Is that really Jesus teachings? To bring down your fellow Christian? I'm sure you know more than me on the subject of Christianity, but I would bet that is not in Jesus teachings.
1/28/08 12:02 PM
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Lymond
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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I will admit it bothers me alot that he belongs to an organization that gave an award to that fuckwad, Farrakhan but not enough to eliminate him as a possible choice for me.
1/28/08 1:01 PM
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jellyman
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/church.asp Obama does not endorse Farrakhan
1/28/08 1:10 PM
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jzspanky
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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Obama is a worthy candidate. Willard Romney... not so much. Ron Paul!
1/28/08 1:20 PM
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jellyman
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"It was stated that his spiritual leader, Rev Wright, is a public fan of Farrakhan and gave him the person of the year award which is confirmed in the article you posted from snopes. Not really very honest of you, imo." Seems pretty honest, I gave you the link to read and said nothing untrue. And imply what you like, independent reports state his church is not even a little bit racist. Why the minister chose to be nice to Farrakhan is a good question, but I don't see what it has to do with Obama. Guilt by association. I may as well call you a racist because you said you thought David Duke was cool, on account of he 'understands your struggle'.
1/28/08 1:24 PM
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jellyman
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Trinity is the largest congregation in the whole United Church of Christ, the ex-Congregational (think Jonathan Edwards) and Reformed (think Reinhold Niebuhr) mainline church body. Trinity's rubric is "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian." So far as I can tell Trinity shapes a kind of ellipse around these two "centers," neither of which makes sense without the other. This you would never know from the slanders of its enemies or the incomprehension and naiveté of some reporters who lack background in the civil rights and African-American movements of several decades ago — a background out of which Trinity's stirrings first rose and on which it transformatively trades.

So Trinity is "Africentric," and deals internationally and ecumenically with the heritage of "black is beautiful." Despite what one sometimes hears, Wright and his parishioners — an 8,000-member mingling of everyone from the disadvantaged to the middle class, and not a few shakers and movers in Chicago — are "keepin' the faith." To those in range of Chicago TV I'd recommend a watching of Trinity's Sunday services, and challenge you to find anything "cultic" or "sectarian" about them. More important, for Trinity, being "unashamedly black" does not mean being "anti-white." My wife and I on occasion attend, and, like all other non-blacks, are enthusiastically welcomed. As for the (subjective) issue of whether a church with an 8,600-member black congregation that espouses a "Black Value System" and urges commitment to the "Black Community," the "Black Family," and "the Black Work Ethic" is a church that is dutifully attending to the needs of its congregation, or one that is advocating a form of separatism, Chicago Sun-Times journalist Monroe Anderson tackled that subject in a piece about TUCC back in March 2007:
If a white presidential candidate's church had a similar statement and "you substitute the word white for black, there would be an outrage in this country," [Sean] Hannity preached. "There would be cries of racism in this country."

True and Catch-22. If a white church plainly and proudly pronounced its whiteness, Hannity, [Tucker] Carlson and company would be right. But if it was the Holy Trinity Polish Church on Chicago's North Side, proclaiming its Polishness, who'd care? This is how African Americans find ourselves in a trick bag. We're defined racially even when we're acting like any other of this nation's ethnic groups. Issues knee-jerkily become black and white when in reality they may be African American and Irish American. Or Serbian American and African American. Remove black and substitute another American ethnic group so that Trinity's Concept No. 6 reads: "Adherence to the Mexican Work Ethic." Does that still sound separatist? Or racist? Of course not. But, if you're insincerely espousing color blindness, while holding the race card up your sleeve, you know you can easily trump African-American ethnic pride every time.
(Trinity's "Talking Points" page responds to some of the criticisms of the TUCC that prompted Anderson's article.)

The TUCC has drawn criticism because its pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, has spoken favorably of controversial Nation of Islam head Louis Farrakhan, and in 2007 Trinity's magazine bestowed an award upon the latter. But, as Stanley Crouch wrote in the New York Daily News:
Newsweek found nothing racist or separatist about Obama's church upon investigation and Obama formally distanced himself from Farrakhan, but the ultimate repudiation of Farrakhan is the senator's very presidential campaign and its welcoming quality to Americans at large, whatever color, whatever religion, whatever class and whatever voting age.
1/28/08 1:35 PM
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THAGE
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Please don't call yourself a "Republican." If you would consider voting for Obama, you don't belong in our party. Thanks.

 

 

BIG TENT PARTY IMHO.

1/28/08 1:42 PM
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jellyman
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BubbleBass Is that an Obama quote or someone else?
1/28/08 1:58 PM
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jbapk
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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John McCain is the most conservative candidate out of Mitt Romney, Guiliani, and Huckabee. I mean, Romney instituted universal health care while he was governor. Isn't that one of the uncrossable lines leading to communism to repubs?
1/28/08 2:00 PM
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Tom Cruise
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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yes
1/28/08 2:05 PM
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jellyman
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"And that would be fair. " LOL that's not what you said at the time. But Obama has already said he disagrees with the move to honour Farrakhan. And the church itself isn't racist by all reports.
1/28/08 2:06 PM
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jason hornbuckle
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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i would consider voting for him if he'd ever say anything besides "our time is now", "change", "i'll bring people together", etc i've watched just about every debate and i could not tell you what he would really do if elected president. the guy is beyond vague on every single issue, and he has no voting record to speak of to indicate what he thinks on most of the important issues I'm sure that won't bother any of the millions of college kids who are firmly convinced that if Obama gets elected the world will magically heal itself the next day, but it does bother me
1/28/08 2:14 PM
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baxter stockman
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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it's easy to tell the folks on this thread who're getting a kick out of what they're saying and those for whom it may be a little more "real". urb... thanks for what amounts to a bunch of ttt's for two independent articles that are in my post up there. also thanks for clowning this thread so much that i went and looked at the information, myself. the farakahn crap is, like i said, a classic case of guilt by association. fearless "thinker" in particular should be able to reckon that one out, known to logisticians as the ad hominem circumstantial. like many others have said, swift-boating at its finest. black and other minority groups ("horribly unprogressive"?) who feel they're at a disadvantage will attempt to achieve equity by "owning" their cultural identities. that is, they will speak up about who they are before anyone else can call them shit ever again. this "africentric" church seems to have converted a lot of people to the christian faith -- the apparent core of republicanism over the last 20 years. and their crime is a "non-negotiable commitment to africa?" at a church that's designed for the needs and interests of black people? holy shit! obama's the black hitler!!!
1/28/08 2:39 PM
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westernwarrior
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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Even a quick google shows Obama has publicly stated he disapproves of Farrakhan's views and of his preacher's views on Farakkhan. It's not even a debate. "I decry racism and anti-Semitism in every form and strongly condemn the anti-Semitic statements made by Minister Farrakhan," Obama said in the statement. "I assume that Trumpet Magazine made its own decision to honor Farrakhan based on his efforts to rehabilitate ex-offenders, but it is not a decision with which I agree." http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/15/obama_decries_farrakhan_statem_1.html Nevertheless, throwing BS at a fast pace appears to be the only tool for Obama opponents on the OG.
1/28/08 3:01 PM
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Lymond
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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"i would consider voting for him if he'd ever say anything besides "our time is now", "change", "i'll bring people together", etc i've watched just about every debate and i could not tell you what he would really do if elected president. the guy is beyond vague on every single issue, and he has no voting record to speak of to indicate what he thinks on most of the important issues " Exactly how I felt but then I realized, you have to just spout that shit to get elected. He has, on other occassions, given concrete ideas and his positions are available on the web. Still not 100% for him but it is starting to look like I may vote after all which I wasn't going to do because I despise the rest of the candidates.
1/28/08 3:13 PM
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sparkyman
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"John McCain is the most conservative candidate out of Mitt Romney, Guiliani, and Huckabee. "

Uhhhh..... you left one of the candidates out. Of course then McCain wouldn't be the most conservative.

1/28/08 3:30 PM
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SKARHEAD
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ttt
1/28/08 3:42 PM
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SKARHEAD
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ttt
1/28/08 4:06 PM
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THAGE
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Obama choose this church for a reason - now whether that reason was because he agreed with what they believed in and taught or whether it was just for political expediency can certainly be debated but to say that it just doesn't matter only tells me that you don't take YOUR spiritual life very seriously.

He did CHOOSE his church over 20 years ago, the example you've given of the pastors "extremism" happened within the last year. So who are you to say that his pastor didn't help him grow over his life? The guy makes one decision that you don't agree with and suddenly Obama's a fanatic for following him? It's not as if HUGE white spiritual leaders like Jim Baker, Pat Robertson, or Jerry Falwell have made ridiculous and offensive statements in the past right? If they did I guess we should condemn politicians that kept them as personal counsel, like George W. Bush.

1/28/08 4:12 PM
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bluedragon
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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"one who has no positions ("Present!")" Educate yourself on why he voted "present" and then go back to cutting yourself. The only naieve one here is you, who think that he can't do a good job at being president because you don't like the church he attends. Considering which party you support and how that has gone over the last 8 years, any statement you put up here is laughable. Would you feel better if he came out and said that Jesus speaks to him and told him to go to war and lead the crusade?
1/28/08 4:37 PM
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baxter stockman
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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bubblebass, the fact that people besides mainline republicans call themselves christians has absolutely no bearing on the other fact that republicanism has leveraged itself into position in middle america using christianity since the pre-reagan years. further, no matter what kind of christianity you're looking at here, be it middle-american conservative christianity, roman catholicism, or new-age unitarianism, what possible way would MORE people being christian detract from the point that it's strange to see christians protesting someone being christian?
1/28/08 5:00 PM
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baxter stockman
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no, i don't think that. i also think that people who have a problem with obama's church have a problem with its racial identity rather than its christian identity. the question i posed to you was in response to your accusation that i don't understand politics and your absurd contention that the fact that there are non-republican christians has anything to do with republicans having done a very fine job of co-opting christian values in the political consciousness of america at large.
1/28/08 5:12 PM
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baxter stockman
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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jesus christ.
1/28/08 5:44 PM
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bluedragon
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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oooo...do you dare me, bubble? For starters, a vote of "present" in Illinois doesn't mean that he doesn't favor the bill. It means that he wants more work done on it in order to get it passed. Or if it was drafted wrong in his eyes or part of something larger, etc. It is a pretty common thing in Illinois, but I'm sure someone who knows everything already knew all of that. Since we are playing truth or dare here Bubble, how about you let me know which candidate you are supporting this week. Your first choice, Dead Thompson, who you were so sure of, is gone. Then you moved over to Huckabee. Shocking. Now that he is about toast, who is the flavor of the week? Mitt happens?
1/28/08 6:08 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 28-Jan-08
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"Obama's church just gave some man-of-the-year award or something to Louis Farrakhan - draw your own conclusions from there." I draw the conclusion that you are trying to use irrelevant and unsubstantiated information to influence people's opinions emotionally.

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