UnderGround Forums
 

SoldierGround >> MCMAP vid with grappling?


2/16/08 8:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JasonKeaton
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 16-Feb-08
Member Since: 03/12/2002
Posts: 2820
 
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hHzVVKL_0FM&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object>
2/16/08 8:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JasonKeaton
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 16-Feb-08
Member Since: 03/12/2002
Posts: 2821
It seems interesting that they are showing so much grappling in this vid. I thought they did a little bit but not as much as this. I wonder if this is from the influence of MMA
2/19/08 4:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
rafie
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 19-Feb-08
Member Since: 11/21/2005
Posts: 480
JASON It got to be the influence of MMA and maybe their evolution of their program rafie
4/16/08 1:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 16 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 219
This Vid is bullshit. Any one in the Military who actually believes that MMA is where it's at for combatives is completely fooling themselves. Fun for sport, but not for real. MMA has great training methods and concepts but is limited for real world folk. questions? visit me on the JKD forum. or just post Joe Maffei www.thecombatnation.com
4/17/08 7:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JasonKeaton
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 17 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/31/08
Posts: 2880
[quote]Joe Maffei - This Vid is bullshit. Any one in the Military who actually believes that MMA is where it's at for combatives is completely fooling themselves. Fun for sport, but not for real. MMA has great training methods and concepts but is limited for real world folk. questions? visit me on the JKD forum. or just post Joe Maffei www.thecombatnation.com[/quote] I think we can agree that some of these things are true. I think MMA is not a bad base as long as the focus is not on competition completely. That is a mistake we have been running into a lot lately. One thing that we implement heavily is scenario training. We throw in lots of variable( shock knife, low light, an extra surprise attacker) to make it more realistic). This has really shifted the focus here at Ft. Knox. I think competiton has it's place as a training tool. Nothing is like a real fight exactly. Everything but a real fight is a trainng tool. Joe, I can understand what you are saying. I think it is the same thing except I see nothing wrong with making MMA your base for Combatives. MACP utilizes a good portion of it's technical base from MMA. You are right on it 's limitations. I agree with that 100%. I think it is important for soldiers to also know when to break the rules( which is what they would do in combat. I do not think we are fooling ourselves since a good portion of soldiers I have trained have told me first hand how MACP has helped them in Iraq or Afghanistan. I would be interested in hearing what you think we could be doing better. By all means, share! I
4/17/08 9:53 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 17 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 221
Jason: Real quick, I started training Jiu-jitsu in 1989 with Rickson and his cousin Renzo. My previous instructor was Paul Vunak training SEAL team 6. I had my first fighter in UFC 7and have been training guys since. In 95 I was brought to Ft Devens to work with the 10th . I was training them BJJ as you guys are now. One of the operators had a loaded gun in a crotch holster and I never picked it up. When he showed me, a light went off in my head, I was so focused on jit's my weapon awareness lacked for a better word and I was training them all wrong. . The guys asked me if I was willing to work on a project which was to integrate edged weapons and firearms in there BJJ training. I agreed now 12 years later I have the system. It has only been taught to LE and certain Military guys who have heard about it. In essence it is a seamless transition program integrating empty hands, knife and firearms, after one has a good MMA base. We train the fighter to recognize the pockets that naturally open up in an MMA fight and deploy either an edged weapon or a firearm. Under stress, poor climate, low light, and with battle gear a simple system was needed, and the objective needed to be your weapon not an armbar. this is what you guys should be doing. MMA is a great star because it teaches you gross motor skills and combat flow but it's only the beginning.
4/17/08 10:34 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 17 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 222
Jason one more thing You don't want to hope the guys break the rules in combat. That's a bad bet. You want them to train to break the rules right from the get go. Through repetition we create habit. You body and subconscious does what it knows especially under stress . teach them right from the beginning. MMA as a base then termination. And JR, these guys are putting their life on the line, do you want them to do a fine job? or a great job , the right job. MMA is inadequate in it's original state. Try going full battle gear, on go out in the swamp, the mud, 3ft snow, or sinking in water, then let me know if you did fine with pure MMA?
4/17/08 2:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 17 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 223
JR. I realize the military are in the infancy regarding MMA in basic, and they have special ops with more advanced training. Gotcha. But you mentioned "the crawl,walk,run phases to trainining." I feel this idea is taught this way for lack of a better way. If the end result is to be high level soldiers/operators then why would you misdirect the training in the early stages only to be corrected later after the solider has been conditioned with inappropriate response? For example take MMA training: if the end result is to be a competent MMA fighter where a wider stance and a low center of gravity is conducive to the clinch and take down defense while striking and defending strikes, why would one want to learn traditional boxing with a narrow stance and a higher center of gravity, only to be changed later when they add in clinch and take down defense. Why not in the crawl stage learn to strike with the end result in mind with people shooting double leg and clinching with you. Now you are learning from the jump and don't have to re-learn later. This is why in the early stages ( the crawl stages) of the UFC, boxers would come in only to be beaten by grapplers, they weren't use to striking against folks trying to take them down. This training is now improved because they are training with the end in mind. Better fundamentals. . Now why would you train a solider to do Kamura, or guillotine and uma platta only later, to tell them in real combat you really wouldn't do that, after they have been conditioned to do so? It makes no sense. Train them with the end in mind from the beginning. This is similar to giving a solider an AK47, have him run thousands of rounds and be able to rip the weapon down and rebuild, and then tell them but in battle you will have an M16. Makes no sense Right? Give them the knowledge and weapon that will be used from the get go and there will be no doubt at game time.
4/17/08 5:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JasonKeaton
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 17 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/31/08
Posts: 2882
Joe, I think that is where we are headed. I would be interested in seeing how you are doing since you have been doing it longer than I have. Are you in cali?
4/17/08 6:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 17 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 225
Bro I'm in Boston but I was just in long beach cali doing the TRAXPO Expo. I will be in NV May 20-23. teaching the training. http://www.warrior-conference.com/ jason shoot me an e-mail mafjkdimdc@aol.com I will be glad to shoot the shit off forum. I can talk more openly. Joe
4/17/08 10:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Normal MT
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 17 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 650

 Joe,

Level 3 is Boxing / Muay Thai, when I was down at Ft Benning in 03, we covered the fact that you cant use the linear Traditional Boxing stance, and I have always been mindfull of the MMA tools, in that they will take what you give them, either a single leg or double leg if it's presented, or kick the shit out of it if it's bearing wieght.

I cant speak for Matt and what has happened since, but I never taught Traditional Boxing while I was there, it was modified at that time because of the Thai element. I think you have been misinformed about the program. Perhaps Matt should comment on the traditional stance that you are talking about.

4/17/08 11:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 17 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 227
Normal MT. I did not mean to imply that the western boxing stance was being used in this program today, you missed the point sir, I was giving and example of the progression of MMA from day 1 in the UFC. I just happened to use boxing. You, yourself have said, " I never taught Traditional Boxing while I was there, it was modified at that time because of the Thai element." It was modified, exactly. It progressed, it improved. What I am saying is that , what I saw on the Vid on this thread in all aspects is in adequate from the moment go, if real combat is the end result. If there is a more advanced level of the MMA training, I haven't seen it or heard of it. And I would have, if it was out there. And I don't mean scenario training. I don't mean MMA in low light, MMA in an ambush, MMA with a shock knife. I mean the MMA itself . what you do in the guard, what you do under cross side, what you do when someone has your back, hooks in. Is sub-standard in real world and there is a better way to learn from the jump. that's all bro Jr no sweat buddy I know, I would be glad to hook up with any of the guys. But sometimes talking is not worth it, especially with the guys that are on top of there game, they will be resistant. Unless I get on the mat and do it to them, most won't believe it. I remember in 89 telling people about my friend and teacher Rickson Gracie and how he would wrap you up like nothing. they didn't believe it until they wrestled him. People need to be open or they will never find there own truth and some have a very hard time giving up something they have worked on for years for the benefit of others. Sad, but true.
4/18/08 11:17 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 228
Jr. Last year I did contact someone, who I would rather not mention and though they were very nice, they could not give me any info of an advanced MMA program. So I will post a new thread and see what we get? or not get?
4/19/08 10:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JasonKeaton
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 19 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/31/08
Posts: 2883
Joe, I will shoot you an email. I have been teaching the progrm for 4 years straight and was of the first Level IV's. BTW, that video is a Marine Video. I wouldn't say it was bad just that is their program. They do things a little differently than us.
4/24/08 6:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SFC Matt Larsen
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 25 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 823
To all above, the MACP program is a method to get Soldiers and units training in a realistic fashion. It is ever evolving and adapting and will continue to do so because it is open to all ideas that prove to be successful in units..

There is, however, a reason why the Army has not had an effective combatives program before now. The answer that what seems like such common sense to every sensei in the world, does not translate to the cultural realities of the military. It is simply diferent training a small group of self motivated students than to train a large goup of Soldiers. That is the main point. Argue if you will but before MACP there was not any training actually happening around the Army. All of the Karate, TaeKwonDo, JeetKunDo, WhoFlungPoo experts in the world had no success. Every add in the martial arts press of a martial arts teacher who claims to have trained the Special Forces or the SEALs is only advertising their own failure to build a working training model. I know what and who and how all of the elite units in the armed forces are trained.

Here is the current state of affairs. The United States Army, to include special operations forces and special missions units, trains with MACP as their base, all 1.2 million of them. Witness the team champions at the Army Championships. 2005- 75th Ranger Regiment, 2006 JFKSWC, 2007 Ft. Bragg/ 82nd Airborne and Special Forces Command. The Air Force has recently decided that the base for their new system will be MACP as well. The only other system having any success on a large enough scale to be significant is the MCMAP. There are a few holdout small units training in less successful systems but they are being drowned in a sea of realistically trained MACP and MCMAP Soldiers Sailors Airmen and Marines.

Here is the bottom line, The MACP runs off of success: Successful fights in Iraq and Afghanistan, successful unit training programs measured by the ability level of the average Soldier, etc, in other words, real, no BS, quantifiable and verifiable success. I am willing to listen and learn from anyone who can show me success. Show me the unit that is trained. Show me the regular Soldiers who have used something successfully.

There is a reason that I do not read Black Belt Magazine. Most of the martial arts world does not understand the concept of empiricism. I currently have over 700 documented successes of MACP training. That is real fights with real Soldiers and real bad guys with all of their kit, weapons etc. There have been thousands more but those are what I have documented. That is not conjecture or opinion and I am not some local martial arts teacher whose students have day jobs as accountants and salesmen. MACP will continue to evolve because our minds are completely open to ideas that can be proven to work for Soldiers and units. That is the test. Units training their average Soldiers to have battlefield success. I envite you, all of the other martial arts teachers in America who have dedicated their life to training and fighting be a part of it.

The surest way is to open up your gym to the Combatives trainers in your area. Let the veting begin. If what you teach has merit, they will be the filter that brings it to the other combatives instructors around the Army.

Matt
4/24/08 9:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 24 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 236
Hey Matt Joe Maffei here. Regarding your statements above.
Ya got some pretty strong words and the documentation as well. Good, it's important to know that because that's a good base to grow from. BTW, I never said you were some local martial arts teacher, teaching accountants and salesmen. I know who you are and your background. I just want to make that clear.


Now! You stated, "Argue if you will but before MACP there was not any training actually happening around the Army. All of the Karate, TaeKwonDo, JeetKunDo, WhoFlungPoo experts in the world had no success."

Yes and No. No success in the military on a large scale, I agree, however very successful in the civilian world. It was the UFC the proving ground. And the for runner to what you guys are doing now, your late. You can provide documentation, that's history, I'm interested in the future. Because we are not the only ones on this planet who realize that MMA is a viable base system, and soon I believe the up coming documentation may reveal a different story. There's folks all over the world doing MMA, even the bad guys. So now what? Have an even playing field? No, unacceptable, we have got to be one step ahead of them as your documentation has proven in the past.

I too never read black Belt, and I had my first MMA fighter in UFC 5, I don't know what you were doing in 95 but we were fighting and training like MMA guys are today. Which led me to progress forward.

You say "I am willing to listen and learn from anyone who can show me success, and our minds are completely open to ideas that can be proven to work for Soldiers and units."

OK! name the time and place. I am willing to travel as far as you are. This is nothing personal Matt or to any other instructor or trainer. For the last few years I have been challenging the status quo to help save lives. My first BJJ teacher was Rickson and I saw how he proved that Gracie jiu-jitsu worked, he took you to the mat and showed you. And that's how I do it. There is really know other way.

JOE
4/25/08 10:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SFC Matt Larsen
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 25 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 826
Double post
4/25/08 10:37 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SFC Matt Larsen
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 25 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 827
I apologize if any thing I have said or will say seems offensive. I hope you can understand my perspective on this. How many martial arts teachers out there do you imagine think they have the answer for the Army? Over the last thirteen or fourteen years that I have been doing this I have been propositioned by and assaulted and insulted by many of the biggest names in the Martial arts world not to mention half of the martial arts hobbyists in America. Every class we teach at the US Army Combatives School has at least one "expert" who really came here to teach us what his teacher thinks we should be doing. It is such a common occurrence that we have a name for that guy. He is referred to as the "Holder of the Red sash".

Martial arts teachers, who have never trained large military units, usually make the mistake of thinking that what is important is what techniques are taught. In fact 100% of the criticism that we face comes from that perspective. While the techniques are important, what really matters is how those techniques feed a holistic training strategy that takes into account every perspective of the force to be trained. This includes the obvious question of what the average Soldier needs to know when he enters a room or trench, which is the question every martial arts teacher thinks he has the answer for. But it also includes much more important things like how you train enough proficient teachers to train 1.2 million people who are spread all over the world and how does the training fit into the training cycle of units from squad to division sized keeping in mind that anything you put on the schedule has to compete in the priority list with everything from marksmanship to preparing wills before deployment.

So basically what I am telling you is that what someone can do on the mat or in the gym is only important if they can translate it into what 600 to 60,000 average people who may or may not be motivated to train can do.

To illustrate my point, when I left the second Ranger battalion in 1998 they hired a very well known Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu teacher to replace me. He was employed there for almost two years. What was the end result, Five or six Soldiers very well trained in BJJ/MMA. But what of the other 600 Soldiers in the battalion and what of integrating combatives into the unit's mission. Sadly, although the instructor they hired was a world class martial arts teacher, he knew nothing about the things I mentioned above. In other words he was a complete failure at what they had hired him to do. His expertise, like virtually all martial arts teachers, was in how to train a small group of self motivated people. The bottom line is that it didn't matter what he taught. It matters that the average Soldier in the unit didn't learn anything.

You asked what I was doing in 1995. I was the NCOIC of Close Quarters Battle and Combatives training in the Second Ranger Battalion in 1995. By that time I had been either a Marine Infantryman or a Ranger for the previous eleven years, had three combat deployments and had been training in the martial arts for all of that time, including living three years in Japan.

I am in fact completely open minded about ways that we can better prepare our Soldier for war. I know enough of the best martial arts teachers in the world to know just how little I know. That does not, however, mean that I do not have experience on which to base decisions. Combatives training in the Army will undoubtedly change but the way it will change is that Soldiers will bring in new ideas from various sources, including local civilian martial arts "experts". These ideas will be veted by the collective experience of the Army's combatives instructor corps. The best ideas, meaning those that prove themselves in units, will be generally accepted and eventually adopted into the doctrine, in other words, the exact same process that every other aspect of our war fighting doctrine goes through. We will continue to learn and grow in the same way that we do for marksmanship or artillery gunnery or emplacing and breaching mined wire obstacles.

I invite you to participate. Open your gym to the combatives instructors in your area. We tell them before they leave here to seek out the local experts and train with them if they teach something useful. If what you teach has merit, they will be the filter that brings it to the thousands of other combatives instructor around the Army. Soon, it will be the doctrine.

Matt
4/25/08 4:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Normal MT
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 25 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 657

 Word!!!!

4/25/08 5:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SFC Matt Larsen
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 25 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 829
Dave your the man.

For everyone else, David Rogers/Normal MT is the source of the basic punch combos in the level three course and a hell of a good Muay Thai and boxing teacher.

Matt
4/26/08 10:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 26 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 237
Matt, you don't have to apologies for anything. I completely understand.
Martial arts in general, has a poor representatives.

This is why I really don't consider myself a martial artist anymore. I also understand the screening process you have to go through. I am always open to any combative instructor's in my area to come by and train and test themselves. ya know any in Boston?
I also understand how a well known BJJ instructor would not fit your job. Believe me when I tell you, I'm in the same boat as you but on the other end. So many LE DT and firearm instructors, the top in the nation and, as you, don't really want to waist there time with just another guy who thinks he is going to re-do the entire SWAT teams. I know bro, so they just pass it down in the ranks. But truthfully, I'll train anyone. I've trained 60 man groups, so I know the difference.

I didn't want to teach you guys what my teacher taught me, because I am the creator of the system, There is know one in the world who does what I do, When the guys at Ft Devens asked me to work on a project for them, I did. And I had certain criteria I had to work with such as, putting a simple system together that anyone, shape or size can perform under stress. So a 45 yr old cop out of shape, or petite 95 lb woman or a solider who has 90lbs on his back, sleep and nutritionally deprived in or out of battle gear in poor climate, on any surface, even sinking in water, or free falling, and in a variety of environments could still perform consistently under stress. With one more tiny problem, the system can't disturb or interrupt any of the existing programs that are in place. Needless to say this was no small task.
Now I finally have that system. It took me ten years to develop it. But it fit's all the criteria. When guys learn it, they all say the same thing. It's so simple, why hasn't anyone ever thought if it before. Ya see matt, it didn't take me ten years to develop this unbelievable complex system. It took me ten years through trial and error to continuously strip it down to get it so simple, even a fat cop can do it. In essence it just is a way to get folks to deploy their edged weapon, or firearm during an MMA fight, in the mix while it's going on through the natural flow of the fight. It's so slick that the opponent doesn't even realize the weapon has been deployed until it's too late.

At first this system was not taught to civilians because it's dangerous and anyone can do it. Now the cat's out of the bag and a lot of the UFC fighters want to train it along with undercover guys, and fed's. .
Matt, I don't want your job and all the red tape that goes with it, and I don't want to be stuck on some base away from my family, that would just limit me to all the opportunities that I already have in place, but if I can help you guys, I will, if not that's ok too. If you can see through all the BS that's out there and look deep into what I have just said, just maybe you will understand my mission in life. if you are still reluctant to check it out, that is a shame not only for you, but for the 1.2 million other guys to add a simple step to what they already have in place.

Joe

.
4/26/08 10:52 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 26 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 238
thanks in advance joe
4/26/08 11:34 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 26 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 239
sorry it repeated
4/26/08 5:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MAJLeavitt
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 26 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 5/9/05
Posts: 117
Joe,

I think you are missing the point....the program we are teaching for the most part very basic, but based on solid principles. How do you get 1.2 Million soldiers with the same common framework at the core level.

As a career martial artist, I'd probably find what you do interesting, useful, and intriguing, and probably relevant.

The issue we have is dealing with the culture, personality, and command climate of our army....coupled with the fact that we also have to transfer muscle memory on some very basic level that might be useful in reality.

It took me a while to figure out the method behind Matt's madness, but it is sound and it works.
4/26/08 5:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MAJLeavitt
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: Apr 26 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 5/9/05
Posts: 118
Joe,

I think you are missing the point....the program we are teaching for the most part very basic, but based on solid principles. How do you get 1.2 Million soldiers with the same common framework at the core level.

As a career martial artist, I'd probably find what you do interesting, useful, and intriguing, and probably relevant.

The issue we have is dealing with the culture, personality, and command climate of our army....coupled with the fact that we also have to transfer muscle memory on some very basic level that might be useful in reality.

It took me a while to figure out the method behind Matt's madness, but it is sound and it works.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.