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3/18/08 1:25 AM
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thatdmgud
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Edited: 18-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/05/2007
Posts: 12
 
My upper command doesn't see the value in the MAC Program. What are some of the ways that you all have overcome the stubborness of older commands?
3/18/08 6:34 AM
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RichW101
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Edited: 18-Mar-08
Member Since: 02/23/2006
Posts: 85
I start out by just training my platoon. Then as the other soldiers start seeing and wanting to train it starts to spread. Plus it will give them a reference to work from. A lot of them are worried that soldiers are going to get injured. So that is a starting point for you. You have to work within the commanders comfort zone.
3/18/08 8:50 AM
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JeffMiller
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Edited: 18-Mar-08 09:00 AM
Member Since: 02/08/2007
Posts: 9
The key is to get someone in the command group involved. Here at Knox, we have a couple battalion/squadron commanders that are level 1 and one that is level 2 certified. I know that the battalion with the level 2 commander does combatives a LOT -- he rolls at least twice a week, encourages course attendance, and facilitates space for reinforcement training in the calendar. I know that when I went through Level 2 a few years ago, I was the only company commander in my brigade that had gotten that certification. I think that helped other leadership see that this wasn't only for NCOs and Soldiers. And I pushed the program HARD -- my company we got lots of folks thru level 1 and 2 and did combatives for PT once a week. From my experience, involvement = buy-in.
3/18/08 9:22 AM
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thatdmgud
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Edited: 18-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/05/2007
Posts: 13
The biggest issue here is that no one wants to pay to send anyone back to Benning for Level 3+. I offered to extend 2 months just to get my Level 3, just to be told to get out of the office by my BDE CSM. Sure it's fun, and the Soldiers actually WANT to participate, but the fact is there are so many more attributes that come with the program that you don't get anywhere else. My company commander actually let me go out locally today and buy some stuff here in Kuwait City. Baby steps are still steps. I want us to run the certifications like we did while I was CONUS, that's all. Small victories add up, and to get the begining of a program before I leave would still be something. I currently train 2 companies here on Fridays, alternating weeks, and am working on 2 more units. It's spreading, and quickly. I don't want the program to come to a stand still waiting on either equipment, or a "qualified" instructor. I also have a seperate project I'm working on, which is to get a gym made up just for Combatives/Self-Defense/Martial Arts. We currently have 8-10 different classes going on here, but they are all spread out, and don't have any dedicated equipment. (hence the thread asking about distributors for a fight house). Thanks all for the replies, any more ideas would help out a lot. Rick
3/19/08 6:41 AM
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RichW101
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
Member Since: 02/23/2006
Posts: 87
Isn't Korea closer than the States. There is going to be a MTT going to Korea in April/May to run a Level III. Maybe they your CoC would send you to that instead of sending you back to the states. It's worth a try to ask maybe. It sounds like you have pretty good support from at least part of your CoC.
3/20/08 12:38 AM
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thatdmgud
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Edited: 20-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/05/2007
Posts: 14
Rich, Thanks for the info about the MTT, but there are direct flights from here to DC everyday. They just don't want to send me to Benning to "get drunk and laid everyday for a month". I have even offered to extend over here for 2 months to make up for the time lost. It's just not the command's priority, and until I get a new command team (July), I will just have to wait. Even SGT Flynn could only give me the arguement that it's a warrior task, they just don't see it that way. I am in a Signal Brigade that manages the theatre communications, so they don't feel that it is a nessessary training focus.
3/20/08 3:40 PM
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Jeff Yurk
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Edited: 20-Mar-08
Member Since: 06/11/2002
Posts: 1233
Fort Bragg Combat MMA

How are you selling it to them? What are your reasons for wanting to go to Level III?

In my experience with the program, in most cases, it is not the "Chain of Command" that is the cause of the problems. Everyone talks about "Them" like there are some old crusty CSM's sitting in a room figuring out ways to keep soldiers from training. The way I see it, if the soldier wants to make it happen, it is on him/her to do it. Soldiers hit a roadblock, and give up.

3/22/08 3:28 AM
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thatdmgud
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Edited: 22-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/05/2007
Posts: 17
Normally I would agree with you Yurk. However, the way I put it earlier was our exact conversation. I asked for Level 3 so that we can run certifications through here, and up not only the experience of the soldiers, but also give them a funcional school. He told me, and I quote "I'm not sending you back to Georgia to get drunk and laid for a month". That has not stopped my fight. I went out and got some gear to start with, and am doing another purchase request for some more items that would help out. I'm slowly trying to get enough equipment to facilitate getting a MTT over here. The problem is that we don't have a place to train a large class, nor the equipment to support it. Also, the majority of level 2s that I have run across here have no desire to go through level 3. I have found a building that could not only store the equipment, but house a training facility as well. The issue that "they" have here is that if you use a building for anything not covered in the "lease" then it can be taken from the unit. It seems easy enought to change the agreement, but I will find out about that today. THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO. Keep it comming if you think of anything. Rick
3/23/08 11:53 PM
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gryphonwrestler
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Edited: 23-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 138
thatdmgud, Usually I just lurk on the site. This time, I will chime in. Now, this is not the way, but "a" way. Stressing the importance of Soldier knowing how to defend themselves is an avenue of approach. Is your unit handling PUCS? If so, combatives training is what the Soldiers most definitely need. Also, give examples of combatives being used in combat. Let the "daliy dozeners" know that Soldiers defending themselves instills warrior spirit. I am in a unit where the chain of command hates combatives. Guess what? I still teach my platoon and hell we do it for PT once a week. Having to close the distance with the enemy requires confidence and warrior spirit. We are no longer fighting the Cold War. Therefore, we must change our focus on how to prepare Soldier for combat. Combatives is one of the elements that does just that. Get some rank involved in your program. You can also get a tournament going or just put on a seminar for the leadership.
3/24/08 6:20 AM
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thatdmgud
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/05/2007
Posts: 18
The seminar is a great idea! I am a SFC, my self and have a MSG and another SFC as Level 2's here. They just have no interest in going further, or improving the current program. The majority of the junior officers are familiar with the program thanks to BOLIC, so they are supportive. I did secure a clamshell here, which has a paved pad in the middle. So, I'm going to drop an ISU90 in there for storage, and we will start up next week sometime. I'm still purchasing more equipment, but expect the well to run dry fairly soon. With or without the support of the higher command, I still have the support of my company, as well as several others in the Brigade. The only downside is that I cannot run certifications or tournaments, and that is my main arguement. I would like for the Soldiers be recognized for their hard work training, and demonstrating the possitive warrior ethos.
3/24/08 2:05 PM
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gryphonwrestler
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Edited: 24-Mar-08 02:23 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 139
thatdmgud, You can still put on the tournament. Who said it has to be "Army Combatives Tournament". Just get guys that know what the hell they are doing, let them ref some dojo/clamshell matches, constructively critique them to get them better at reffing and have a go at it. Army Combatives is seven weeks of training(I,II &III), keep that in perspective. After seven weeks of training, you are not gonna save the world with Army Combatives. What makes the program effective is the sustainment training. The skills will diminish if not used. How many Level II guys that you know that cant passed the guard utilizing the skills learned in Level I? My point is this, if the Soldiers that are already certified in the program do not have sustainment or profiency training, thier skills will diminish and so will the program. You are doing a great job putting forth the effort to get leadership involved. Keep doing it. I betcha, if you wanted to put on a Ten Mile Run, runners would come out in droves. So put up posters, flyers, whatever to get people to train. Once again, grapplers, wrestlers and martial artist will come out in droves. Teach them Army Combatives. Once they are proficient, show them how to ref, starting off reffing in class. Once they are good, put on the seminar.After the seminar, put on the "Army Combatives" tournament. Do you have any guys with BJJ/Judo experience? Get those guys involved. Trust me, there are plenty of guys there that are certified. You just have to bring them out somehow. Once again, just a way, maybe not "the way". Akil Aabid
3/24/08 4:27 PM
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thatdmgud
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/05/2007
Posts: 19
Akil, I like the way you think. The only issue that I have with that is that "if" someone would get hurt/injured during said competition, and they weren't certified instructors, it would have the possibility of giving the program a black eye. More progress though, another company has requested me to do situational training for their round robin this weekend. The more eyes on, the better. I'm trying to compile a master list of all the instructors I have locally so that we can do sustainment training (not an easy task, just ask benning). I'm currently training for a marathon here this Sunday, so it has sucked up the majority of my free time. I'm anxious to see how much progress I can make once I can dedicate more time to this. I'M PUMPED UP RICK
3/25/08 7:35 AM
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RichW101
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
Member Since: 02/23/2006
Posts: 89
Rick, You said that you are a Level II right. You can ref matches that are just the standard competition rules, take downs to grappling. And that would get things started. And who knows, maybe a level III would come out of the woodworks too. Akil is right though, you have to start somewhere and that is a great place to start. We all know how important sustainment training is. Good luck over there. Rich
3/25/08 12:30 PM
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gryphonwrestler
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 140
thatdmgud, Brother, Soldiers get hurt everyday and that doesn't stop this green machine from rolling. My chain of command use to use that line with me. My reply, was "Sir/CSM, PVT NoSoSmart got injured doing PT yesterday.Guess What? My platoon still did PT today. Old Timers always try to think of something to stop the program. Combatives is a piece of the pie that helps to instill warrior spirit. Then I say this (it normally gets me kicked out of the office) "Sir, you have given me 15 ways to end the program, do you have any ideas on how to get the program implemented". I'm a smart ass(sometimes) I just hate when NCOs talk down on the program. Let those Haters be your Motivators. Everytime they come up with something, I just turn the heat up. JR. Thanks for the compliment. Are you in Korea yet? If so, is the Seoul BJJ club still up and running. Major Bob and Gustavo were both instrumental (along with others)on keeping the fire burning. You guys are gonna make me dust off the Sprawls and get back into it. thatdmgud, once again, keep pushing. Trust me, if will be all worth it. Then see how many doubters or naysayers become team players. AA
3/25/08 3:42 PM
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JeffMiller
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
Member Since: 02/08/2007
Posts: 11
Just to add onto the injury argument, present your chain of command statistics on Soldier injuries in combatives vs other sports. Basketball is usually a contender for top spot, and I have yet to hear of a Soldier engaging the enemy in a spontaneous game of 1 on 1.
3/26/08 4:26 AM
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thatdmgud
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/05/2007
Posts: 20
Keep talking and someone will hear you right? One of the guys I play raquetball with turns out to be a Level 4, and there is another one here locally. (anybody know SGT Kevin Stevenson?) So that will definately help me out. We talked briefly last night about starting a Camp program to include sustainment training, and lower level tournaments. Woo Hoo! Things are comming together now; I have instructors, a location, and am starting to get gear. Thanks all for your help. Will keep updating as well.
3/26/08 8:16 AM
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gryphonwrestler
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 141
thatdmgud, Good Stuff! ttt
3/26/08 2:58 PM
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thatdmgud
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/05/2007
Posts: 21
I want to thank you all for your help and insight. Eventhough I helped with the Gordon program, I didn't have to start it from scratch like I'm doing here. I had BIG Will, and rafie running it. I know that a lot of you have already been through this yourselves, and sharing that experience is helping me a lot. Thank you all for your help, hopefully this thread will help others trying, or thinking of trying to do the same! RICK
3/26/08 7:53 PM
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RichW101
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
Member Since: 02/23/2006
Posts: 90
I can't believe a Level IV is not kicking and screaming about there not being a program going and sustainment training going on. That is our sole mission in life as a Level IV. I spent most of my year in Korea trying to grow the program there. It was going great when i got there and we keep it a float. Now it sounds like it is starting to grow some more. thatdmgud, keep pushing. For every door that gets slammed in your face, there is another one waiting to be kicked in. It sounds like your program is about to catch another gear and start rollin'. Good luck. Rich
3/27/08 2:25 AM
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thatdmgud
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Edited: 27-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/05/2007
Posts: 22
Rich, The 4 that I talked to has only been here for 2 weeks, and is a chaplain's assistant. He's only here for 4 months, so I need to use him as much as I can while I have him. Between MAC and MCMAP, this is getting interesting. Rick
3/27/08 7:28 AM
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RichW101
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Edited: 27-Mar-08
Member Since: 02/23/2006
Posts: 92
I would be using him for sure. The Army has spent a lot of money training him to Level IV. You might even try having him talk to your CoC. Maybe a different spin on why everyone needs to train combatives will help. But I think the seminar will be a big influence for you. Show them what you can and plan to train and how it will benefit all soldiers. Rich
4/7/08 8:33 AM
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thatdmgud
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Edited: Apr 7 2008 12:00A
Member Since: 9/5/07
Posts: 24
quick update,

i got my second purchase request through. will be going out to get more equipment in the next few days. i told my dbc that i was going to nickel and dime him until he tells me no, his reply was "just order whatever it is you need". holy shit! it's on.

now if i just had someone to sign the certificates. the two level 4s that i have here are both out, one with a torn groin, and the other is in school and studying for the samc board. so i'm still short an instructor. even when i told them all i want them for is the clinch drill and the practical test. shammers.

overall, things are happening, and for the good. i know sooner or later people are going to be pissed that theres xthousands of dollars in equipment that isn't being used because there isn't an instructor. maybe that will get me to benning?

thanks to all

rick
4/9/08 1:26 PM
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EbolaMonkey
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Edited: 02/19/11 11:08 AM
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2/19/11 11:08 AM
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EbolaMonkey
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Edited: 02/19/11 11:08 AM
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