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PoliticalGround >> serious question re: obama


3/19/08 12:04 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"i'm not the one who posted multiple cut and pastes about McCain, on this thread, Fraser. You are

so, since you think this thread is about Obama and whether or not he's a racist, why did you do that?"

My criticism was a direct quote of .. never mind. It would take too much effort to explain. If you really want to get it, re-read some of those posts.
3/19/08 12:04 PM
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bluedragon
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"Well, no, according to Obama's 1995 book, it is not at all true that she "once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street." Instead, she once confessed her fear of one aggressive black beggar who didn't pass by her but instead confronted her, demanded money, and then gave her -- an intelligent, level-headed woman who had worked her way up to a mid-level corporate management position -- good reason to believe he would have violently mugged her if her bus hadn't pulled up." Just when I thought you may have a clue, you go and expose yourself as one of the morons with an agenda. So if a white old lady nearly gets mugged by a black man, that old lady will never, ever say anything bad about black men in general, but just that specific black man who tried to mug her? Got it.
3/19/08 12:05 PM
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ABE FROMAN
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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Fuck it, easier to hate each other and shut the fuck up. People are going to vote for who they are voting for, nothing will change that. WHY enagage in the same shit on 20 different threads? Keep one running and shut the rest down.
3/19/08 12:08 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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" Well, no, according to Obama's 1995 book,"

You mean that Obama wrote every single life experience he had into that definitive work, and that he could not possibly be referring to anything that had happened that was not in the book?

"Criticizing Obama and looking at his connection to obviously racist pastor does not make people racist. Why the hell SHOULD I like Obama? I'm not black"

ugh.
3/19/08 12:09 PM
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Chris in Cambridge
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"Fuck it, easier to hate each other and shut the fuck up." Hating each other is *precisely* the result of Wright's speaking and Obama's tacit approval. I was surprised to learn how universal that kind of pulpit hatred is in black churches. "People are going to vote for who they are voting for, nothing will change that. WHY enagage in the same shit on 20 different threads? Keep one running and shut the rest down. " Actually, until recently, I was leaning McCain over Clinton (gack, what a choice), but Obama over McCain. Now I simply can't vote for Obama based on what I've learned recently. I just don't think I can vote for POTUS at this point-- it's strictly down ticket voting for me. So people can and do change their minds.
3/19/08 12:11 PM
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fanat
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"Criticizing Obama and looking at his connection to obviously racist pastor does not make people racist. Why the hell SHOULD I like Obama? I'm not black" ugh. " Fraser, You did not copy my full quote. I'm sure it's a simple mistake on your part? lol
3/19/08 12:13 PM
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Chris in Cambridge
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"You mean that Obama wrote every single life experience he had into that definitive work" Have you read it? It's pretty long. "and that he could not possibly be referring to anything that had happened that was not in the book?" It is possible. But you'd think that if granny were racist that he'd have given a clue to that sometime before his recent nationally televised ass-covering speech. But I see no evidence of it.
3/19/08 12:13 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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Oh yeah, implying that one can only support Obama if you are black or blind is MUCH less racist than saying one can only support Obama if you are black.
3/19/08 12:15 PM
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Chris in Cambridge
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"Just when I thought you may have a clue" Possibly unwarranted assumption. "you go and expose yourself as one of the morons with an agenda." No agenda. Literally. I don't support any of the candidates and will most likely not be voting for POTUS. "So if a white old lady nearly gets mugged by a black man, that old lady will never, ever say anything bad about black men in general, but just that specific black man who tried to mug her? Got it." Maybe, maybe not. But it is not indicated in his autobiography, and it seems unlikely to me that his first mention of this would be recent. But we're all guessing here.
3/19/08 12:16 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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" Have you read it? It's pretty long."

LMAO!!!

"But you'd think that if granny were racist that he'd have given a clue to that sometime before his recent nationally televised ass-covering speech. But I see no evidence of it."

He didn't say she was racist.
3/19/08 12:17 PM
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jason hornbuckle
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"My criticism was a direct quote of .. never mind. It would take too much effort to explain. " its always really easy for you to show up to confuse the issue, but really hard for you to actually have a discussion about any of the points you've raised don't hurt yourself, i know how it is
3/19/08 12:22 PM
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super chin
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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thinking whites are endemically in on some conspiracy to spread stds in an effort to decimate black populations in this country is extremely paranoid. tell me though - is thinking that homosexuality is the cause of hurricane katrina less insane? mccain accepted and still accepts support from right wing evangelists (hagee etc.) who have expressed this belief. he quietly distanced himself from certain remarks, but keeps accepting their support. as for obama, do i think the man or his wife is racist? i don't even agree with the premises of that question. people don't choose their churches in the vacuum some of you tend to think they do. obama wanted to be part of a community and was likely searching for identity as a mixed race youth. he loved aspects of the community even if he saw some aspects as tortured or ignorant. does this mean a man who was the president of the harvard law review and has serious political aspirations actually believes everything said in that church? no, he's by all evidence more pragmatic and intelligent than that, and most likely views a lot of the more fringe statements as false consciousness. however, he recognizes that the anger underlying it, no matter how it is expressed, is real and has causes, and he cares for the people caught up in that anger. my opinion is that most of the people crying racist on this thread will not be convinced by anything the man does that he's not racist, because they already didn't like him from the start, and this church nonsense merely provides them a talking point that allows them to use a criticism that has built in rhetorical appeal and implications in this culture. by calling someone racist, no matter what their particular offense, you conjure up images of the worst offenses ever committed in this society. you conjure up images of klansmen and militants. obama has never in his public record said anything that gives cause to think he would be racist or institute racist policies if elected. "forget what he says, it's what he means" is one of the arguments people on the right were most offended by when right wing politicians were attacked as racist. funny how quickly consistency is exchanged for political expediency.
3/19/08 12:24 PM
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Chris in Cambridge
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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'He didn't say she was racist.' "and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe" I think the implication is pretty clear.
3/19/08 12:27 PM
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jason hornbuckle
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"is thinking that homosexuality is the cause of hurricane katrina less insane?" Fraser's already informed everyone that this thread is about Obama only, don't try to muddle the water with other issues "by calling someone racist, no matter what their particular offense, you conjure up images of the worst offenses ever committed in this society. you conjure up images of klansmen and militants." no shit, that's why black people shouldn't throw that word around every time their company doesn't give them the best parking space "obama has never in his public record said anything that gives cause to think he would be racist or institute racist policies if elected." that's true, but, like i said, its hard to believe that a man who surrounds himself with racists has no hint of racism in him anywhere. people who say "yeah but there's no proof that he believes what all these other people believe" are technically correct but you are definately known by the company that you keep, especially when you go out of your way to ever say anything definative about anything, the way he does i personally am pretty sure he's far less racist than Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, but i'm pretty sure he's more racist than Colin Powell or Condi Rice or Clarence Thomas
3/19/08 12:29 PM
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Brendasu
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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my opinion is that most of the people crying racist on this thread will not be convinced by anything the man does that he's not racist, because they already didn't like him from the start, and this church nonsense merely provides them a talking point that allows them to use a criticism that has built in rhetorical appeal and implications in this culture. -there you have it.
3/19/08 12:30 PM
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Chris in Cambridge
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"tell me though - is thinking that homosexuality is the cause of hurricane katrina less insane?" I'll take "no" for 200, Alex. You know, the debate tactic of arguing that something is not _really_ bad since there's this other worse thing that also exists is *very* popular around here.
3/19/08 12:30 PM
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Brendasu
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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i personally am pretty sure he's far less racist than Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, but i'm pretty sure he's more racist than Colin Powell or Condi Rice or Clarence Thomas -lmao
3/19/08 12:38 PM
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Information
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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No, I do not believe Obama is a racist. However, I believe he engages in racial politics. "Politician" is probably a more repugnant smear than "racist".
3/19/08 12:40 PM
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jason hornbuckle
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"lmao" speaking of Clarence Thomas, he's older than Wright, isn't he? What's your explanation for his lack of anti-white, foaming at the mouth diatribes, Brendasu? after all, as a black man alive when racism was legal, he must be full of hate, right?
3/19/08 12:42 PM
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bluedragon
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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Jeramiah Wright was a Marine who served his country! Show some damn respect! -Souljacker
3/19/08 12:42 PM
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Brendasu
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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speaking of Clarence Thomas, he's older than Wright, isn't he? What's your explanation for his lack of anti-white, foaming at the mouth diatribes, Brendasu? after all, as a black man alive when racism was legal, he must be full of hate, right? -maybe he is! that's the point. you can't possibly know if condi rice, clarence thomas or colin powell are any more or less racist than obama.
3/19/08 12:49 PM
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oldnslow
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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super chin eloquently summed up much of my reactions to reading this thread. This in particular is particularly poigniant: "as for obama, do i think the man or his wife is racist? i don't even agree with the premises of that question. people don't choose their churches in the vacuum some of you tend to think they do. obama wanted to be part of a community and was likely searching for identity as a mixed race youth. he loved aspects of the community even if he saw some aspects as tortured or ignorant." I would add that my assumption is that Obama's choice in churches also has something to do with gaining legitimacy in Chicago's black community, both for personal and future political reasons. Do I think he is racist and hates white folk? No. Do I think he could hold some anger over how this country has historically treatent black folk and other people of color? Yes. Do I think he will be fair in implementing national policies in regards to race? Probably. Besides, did he not denounce the inflamatory statements of this pastor?
3/19/08 12:50 PM
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jellyman
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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'Poor jellymn spamming the forum with the "but they have a white friend" video defense - how pathetic.' Actually, they have many white friends. The UCC is mostly white. That guy is their spokesman.
3/19/08 1:13 PM
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super chin
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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good point oldnslow - obama needed the political capital of the black community when he first started out in chicago, and it was what helped his rapid rise to prominence. there is no evidence, however, in his policy statements, speeches, or history, that would cause one to think that he cannot adjust his scope to represent the country as a whole were he elected president. as for this thread being about obama and not mccain - this thread is about obama, a presidential candidate, and so discussions of electability are inevitable. this necessarily entails we discuss the choices we have within the current field of candidates. so if these are reasons that obama should not be elected, it is a fair response to say that no other candidate bears such scrutiny particularly well either. More importantly though, even if we limit ourself to the question of whether obama is racist - drawing comparisons between obama's associations and mccain's associations helps evaluate to what degree we can agree to consider an association with any given individual a tacit endorsement of that individual's entire belief system. if you can agree that mccain is clearly homophobic and irrationally believes god sends hurricanes to smite sodomites, i have no problem with you decrying obama as racist - at least then you're being consistent.
3/19/08 1:15 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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Fraser's Chris in Cambridge already informed everyone that this thread is about Obama only, don't try to muddle the water with other issues FIXED

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