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PoliticalGround >> serious question re: obama


3/19/08 1:15 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"my opinion is that most of the people crying racist on this thread will not be convinced by anything the man does that he's not racist, because they already didn't like him from the start, and this church nonsense merely provides them a talking point that allows them to use a criticism that has built in rhetorical appeal and implications in this culture." teh end
3/19/08 2:15 PM
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oldnslow
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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And while I do not believe that the US Government engineered AIDS and other STDs to kill off or suppress the black community, there is history of similar actions by the United States. Brendasue touched on one of them in the Tuskegee Experienments. The other I can think of is the US Army using smallpox to infect Native Americans. So that history - combined with unbalanced drug sentancing (crack vs. powdered cocaine), the Reagan and Bush Sr. administration's reluctance to allocate resources to fight AIDS when it initially impacted unpopular communities, and other government actions - could lead to SOME in the black community believing that AIDS and crack are part of a government conspiracy to oppress the black community. I, personally, think that such beliefs are not valid and that their promotion by some in the black community actually detract legitimacy from struggles waged against legitimate injustices, but I can understand the anger (and the history) that is behind the radicalization of this subset.
3/19/08 2:20 PM
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LiveWire
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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My opinion:

Ultimately, these topics and the comments on both sides show that the country has a long way to go in terms of race relations and while people may be diametrically opposed on their viewpoints the dialogue in places like this needs to continue.

 

3/19/08 2:38 PM
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jason hornbuckle
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"The other I can think of is the US Army using smallpox to infect Native Americans." 1) that was over a hundred years ago, and 2)those people weren't US citizens. 3) how exactly is the US government to blame when 48 or 49% of the NEW HIV cases in America in the last year the CDC has information for were blacks? Is the government still doing it? or has it passed now into the realm of personal responsibility? there's no valid reason for any person of any color to believe this nonsense
3/19/08 2:53 PM
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pneuma
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"my opinion is that most of the people crying racist on this thread will not be convinced by anything the man does that he's not racist, because they already didn't like him from the start, and this church nonsense merely provides them a talking point that allows them to use a criticism that has built in rhetorical appeal and implications in this culture." teh end " Ah, yes...the "let's force them not to discuss this at all" argument. I suspect we will be seeing that A LOT if Mr Obama is elected. One could point to any die-hard leftist and say the same thing about virtually any subject. You only were against the Iraq War because you hate the military, you are only against tax cuts because...etc. In goes no where and says nothing about the reasons for or against the subject at hand...which is, of course, the tactic and the intent. I suppose you should be given some credit for not insisting that anyone who questions Obama's views is, in fact, racist themselves, but that should be small comfort.
3/19/08 2:53 PM
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oldnslow
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"1) that was over a hundred years ago, and 2)those people weren't US citizens. 3) how exactly is the US government to blame when 48 or 49% of the NEW HIV cases in America in the last year the CDC has information for were blacks? Is the government still doing it? or has it passed now into the realm of personal responsibility?" You are correct, Jason, that it was over a hundred years ago. But why does it matter that the Natvie Americans were not officially citizens? It was an act committed on our soil and is still a part of our history though. As is the Tuskegee Experiment, which was more recent. As is the history of the terror campaigns waged by US citizens to suppress the political power of other US citizens with the tacit and implicit cooperation of certain local and state governments up through the 1960s. And if you read my post, I did not say that I found the AIDS claim valid. I said I can understand the anger and history that generates such radicalization.
3/19/08 3:00 PM
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jason hornbuckle
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"But why does it matter that the Natvie Americans were not officially citizens?" why does it matter that our military was killing off people from another nation that'd we'd been at war with before and would be again, as opposed to our own citizens? was that a serious question? "As is the Tuskegee Experiment, which was more recent." also decades ago. The federal government did not invent AIDS, there is no valid reason for anyone to think that they did. Even if they did invent it to get rid of blacks, and all blacks are being told this by their preachers, how are blacks still half of all new cases Every single situation you're citing is either our government injecting someone with something one at a time, or our government infecting a population with an airborne disease. In other words, infecting a group with the knowledge that the infection would stay with that group There is no precedent for the US infecting people with and STD in the hopes that it will spread like wildfire across the entire country and eventually take out their target in a random way, knowing that it would take out at least as many others in the process the idea isn't just untrue, its NONSENSE. you might as well say America invented earthquakes to kill the black man, that makes as much sense
3/19/08 3:06 PM
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pneuma
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"And while I do not believe that the US Government engineered AIDS and other STDs to kill off or suppress the black community, there is history of similar actions by the United States. Brendasue touched on one of them in the Tuskegee Experienments. The other I can think of is the US Army using smallpox to infect Native Americans. " Well, first, one should point out that the US Army smallpox issue was wholly made up by the illustrious Ward Churchill, who has since been removed from his academic position for academic fraud. If you have any interest in the truth, and I see no reason to believe you do, you can read an academic article about the subject here: http://www.plagiary.org/smallpox-blankets.pdf But your whole argument is specious. While it is true the US government used not just blacks (although you seem only to care about that) but all sorts of civilians and military personell for various experiments, that does not go anywhere to establishing that they did this one specific thing. It's like saying X is a thief, I have something that is missing, ergo X stole it. In fact, considering how transparent the US government tends to be, and how leak prone it is (not to mention incompetent), it seems impossible they could get away with this. Not to metion we know exactly where the AIDS virus cmomes from and how it is transmitted. But why bother with troubling facts, when you can go on a rant? I heard some black woman on one of the TV shows making the argument that lots of black people believe the AIDS/Drugs story to be true, thinking that fact-- which I am sure is true-- somehow gave weight to the story in the first place. Of course it doesn't.
3/19/08 3:09 PM
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pneuma
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"why does it matter that our military was killing off people from another nation that'd we'd been at war with before and would be again, as opposed to our own citizens? was that a serious question?" see above...you're emarassing yourself-- although were it to be true and not wholly false, you'd be making a good argument. It's surprising though how a falsehood can become true though isn't it?
3/19/08 3:09 PM
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Brendasu
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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While it is true the US government used not just blacks (although you seem only to care about that) but all sorts of civilians and military personell for various experiments, that does not go anywhere to establishing that they did this one specific thing. -that can be said for anything that is a "theory" - it doesn't mean they did, but it certainly establishes a pattern if you were inclined to thinking that way.
3/19/08 3:14 PM
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oldnslow
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Again, I did not say I found the AIDS concept valid. I said I can understand the anger and history behind the radicalization of those that do. Radicalization, whether here in the US or in the Middle East, does not come from nowhere. My belief is that it is worthwhile trying to understand its sources if we want to end or at least reduce it.
3/19/08 3:20 PM
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Fraser
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In a country where creationism is taken seriously as a "scientific theory" by a significant proportion of the population and a third of those polled still believe that Saddam had a hand in 9/11, is it really so appalling that some blacks hold the belief that the government is out to get them?
3/19/08 3:20 PM
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pneuma
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Edited: 19-Mar-08 03:30 PM
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"that can be said for anything that is a "theory" - it doesn't mean they did, but it certainly establishes a pattern if you were inclined to thinking that way" You (and "they") are making a specific charge-- and a rather serious one. That the US government created and then relased the AIDS virus to kill black people/ the US government imported crack and sold it to african americans, knowing they would become addicted and that they could use this as a means to lock them all in prison. If you're going to make any specific charge, you should be able to at least support it with SOME factual evidence. I could argue, based on your logic, that the government is intent on putting a race of genetically engineered dog people in charge and make all humans, no matter the color, their unwilling slaves. What's my support? That the government has a pattern of doing bad things. Silly. And it can't even be called a "pattern". By pattern you mean to say that they have a "tendency" to act a certain way...which implies it is a consistent mode of operation. But that's just not true. While the government regularly does bad things, they also regularly do good things and, more often than not, do things to which you could not ascribe any moral charge, good or bad. They just act as any government does. Clearly instances like the Tuskegee experiments are anomalies, not patterns at all.
3/19/08 3:23 PM
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Brendasu
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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You (and "they") are making a specific charge lol, wow, do we all look alike too? i never said the u.s. government manufactured AIDS nor do i believe it to be true.
3/19/08 3:26 PM
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pneuma
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"lol, wow, do we all look alike too? i never said the u.s. government manufactured AIDS nor do i believe it to be true. " You are certainly supporting the argument here-- whether you believe it or not. And, based on your posts, you seem to have the capacity to believe it
3/19/08 3:34 PM
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pneuma
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And what you said on the subject was this: From: Brendasu Date: 03/19/08 11:18 AM Member Since: 10/26/2004 12218 Total Posts Ignore User Last edited:19-Mar-08 11:19 AM its almost surreal how you can't actually get a black person, even on here, to just come out and say "of course the US government didn't use AIDS and crack to try to kill black people. if a black individual is a crack head or has AIDS, that's his or her own responsibility" 10 threads about this, and i haven't heard anyone say "wow that's weird that anyone would think that -no one ever asked me what i felt about that or if i believed it. and you won't hear me say "gee, why on earth would anyone think that" given the fact that there are still people alive today who have syphillis because the GOVERNMENT wanted to conduct a study on the effect sphyillis had on the human body. do i believe the AIDS thing? no. do i believe that some could reasonably come to that conclusion based on the actions of the u.s. government in the past? yes.
3/19/08 3:34 PM
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Brendasu
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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You are certainly supporting the argument here-- whether you believe it or not. And, based on your posts, you seem to have the capacity to believe it -either you believe something or you don't. i don't support the theory, so whether or not i have the "capacity" to believe it is irrelevant.
3/19/08 3:34 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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Did you read what he posted? You believe it, so get over yourself.
3/19/08 3:34 PM
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Brendasu
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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And what you said on the subject was this: exactly - i don't believe it.
3/19/08 3:35 PM
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pneuma
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In other words, you don't personally believe the AIDS argument, but do believe it to be a reasonable one. You don't believe it, but you defend it. Hence, "you (and they)".
3/19/08 3:37 PM
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Brendasu
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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In other words, you don't personally believe the AIDS argument, but do believe it to be a reasonable one. -reasonable to some, yes. You don't believe it, but you defend it. -but i don't believe it, which is what you accused me of. Hence, "you (and they)". -no, you used the "you and they" to refer to the the specific (and serious) charge against the government. i'm making no such charge.
3/19/08 3:38 PM
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oldnslow
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Edited: 19-Mar-08 03:51 PM
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pneuma, slow down there tiger. I did not make any such charge. Let me cut and paste my claim: "I, personally, think that such beliefs are not valid and that their promotion by some in the black community actually detract legitimacy from struggles waged against legitimate injustices, but I can understand the anger (and the history) that is behind the radicalization of this subset." "And if you read my post, I did not say that I found the AIDS claim valid. I said I can understand the anger and history that generates such radicalization. " "Again, I did not say I found the AIDS concept valid. I said I can understand the anger and history behind the radicalization of those that do. " -- edited fo sloppy typing
3/19/08 3:42 PM
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Chris in Cambridge
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Edited: 19-Mar-08
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"In a country where creationism is taken seriously as a "scientific theory" by a significant proportion of the population and a third of those polled still believe that Saddam had a hand in 9/11, is it really so appalling that some blacks hold the belief that the government is out to get them?" Yes, it is. It still is. I could conceivably agree with an argument that creationism is worse, but it doesn't make it good. Wright is making things worse for his congregation by taking the lazy way out and telling them what they want to hear-- that it's all a vast conspiracy against them. That kind of argument poisons race relations.
3/19/08 3:44 PM
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pneuma
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"Did you read what he posted? You believe it, so get over yourself." Yeah. See how clever Fraser is? "either you believe something or you don't. i don't support the theory, so whether or not i have the "capacity" to believe it is irrelevant." You certainly support the theory. You don't hold it to be true. You have argued in behalf of those who do believe it, so you support it and them. You do so because yo find it reasonable based on the past actions of your goverment. I support the Big Bang Theory. I don't hold it to be true. I support it because it seems a reasonable explanation and there is some circumstamtial evidence to support it. But there is far too little evidence to say it is true. See?
3/19/08 3:50 PM
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Brendasu
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Edited: 19-Mar-08 03:56 PM
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I support the Big Bang Theory. I don't hold it to be true. I support it because it seems a reasonable explanation and there is some circumstamtial evidence to support it. But there is far too little evidence to say it is true. -that could be one reason why you support it, but you could also support it simply because people have a right to believe in the big bang theory, just like they have a right to believe that god created the universe in 7 days, or that santa claus is real. that doesn't mean you believe any of that to be true. you're essentially placing me on the side of the AIDs consipracy theorists because i can understand where they are coming from. that is ridiculous.

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