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PoliticalGround >> A Brief For Whitey (Obama Speech)


3/21/08 4:07 PM
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thepopeye
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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"There's a difference between coming to this country poor and working your way up in a couple generations, and living in this country with a 300-year history of slavery and oppression around you like a cloud." The problem with that cloud is, it is never given a chance to dissipate. Slavery in the US lasted from 1600 to 1865 (in some areas less in others) I won't even go into the idea that for 176 of that time it was not even the US. If it ended in 1865 and we are now in 2008 then it has been over for 143 years there are no more slaves. So when can we stop using that as a crutch, it should be obvious that slavery has had little to no impact on anyone in then last lets say 100 years. At what point does Slavery stop being used as a crutch? Oppression sure that can be used there are still people alive today who suffered from it, but don't try to blame the problems of today on a crime committed 143 years ago. Those that were effected by the oppressive laws of the 60's need to move on. The problem is those people either refuse to move on, or are not allowed to because people like Obamas Rev. wont let them they stir that cloud up and point to it as the reason that in 40 years since that oppression was outlawed the African American people have continued to lag behind in school, despite being in the same schools as whites, they continue to have a high rate of incarceration, they continue to have high rates of drop out, unwed mothers, drug use, sexually transmitted diseases, credit issues etc etc. All of that we are to believe is due to the injustice visited upon their grand parents and for a brief time upon their parents. On the other hand the immigrant who comes here from Asia, Cuba,Mexico hell even Africa can in a couple of generations make it out of the ghettos they often SHARE with African Americans, while the African American only points at past injustice to explain the failure. The difference is those immigrants that come here often from conditions far far worse then anything any African American born in this country in the last 100 years could relate to, don't see the barriers of culture, language, and financial disparity. They see opportunity and they go after it. Tell me do you believe discrimination still exists today? I do. However unlike some people I dont believe it only exists for African Americans. If you are one of those people then you need to get out more.
3/21/08 4:12 PM
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Chris in Cambridge
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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"Blacks will never be truley free, until they are all back on their continent of Africa. They will not be missed." ^^^ Not helpful.
3/21/08 4:13 PM
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Ison Dart
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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"What can we do to stop it so that we can just be satisfied start treating any black person normally like we would any other citizen?" Do it now. Treat blacks normally now. That may include more than you think it does. The Jews and the Irish have countries that get lots of help from the US government.
3/21/08 4:15 PM
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Ison Dart
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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BubbleBass, I get the feeling that you think this conversation is about Obama being president and that you feel certain people (me included) are arguing for his election. Is that true?
3/21/08 4:42 PM
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pigpen
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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ttt for later

and hey ison, haven't seen you in a while!
3/21/08 6:35 PM
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Altofsky
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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"The "white community" must invest more money in black schools and communities"

Hey, man... FUCK YOU.

My family never owned any goddamn slaves. We didn't even get here till the 80s.

Just because my skin is white, I have to invest money in black things? FUCK YOU AND THE GUY YOU RODE IN ON!

Take me out of the equation you nincom-fucking-poop.
3/21/08 6:52 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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"Any group could wrap themselves in the same excuse. Jews could argue it's difficult to attain success with the Holocaust hanging aroud you like a cloud, the Irish could bring up their own depredations, famines and oppressions, invasions and poverty; pretty much every group could. Gays could say it's impossible to do well because of discrimination agains earlier gays." Unlike slavery and legal discrimination, the holocaust wasn't perpetrated by the US government. The Irish didn't suffer the same level of oppression in terms of time, government endorsement, severity or association with something as indelible as skin color. The same with gays. It's not the same situation at all. "But OK, let's give it to you. The question then becomes, when does it end? What can we do to stop it so that we can just be satisfied start treating any black person normally like we would any other citizen?" That's a great question, but the only easy answer is "not, magically, right now". The effects of slavery and discrimination still exist, and wondering when they will go away won't make them go away. An even better question than "when" is HOW. And that's what Obama's speech was about. Things are getting better, but just because you are sick of black people complaining doesn't make it true that they don't have anything to complain about. The fact that some of them complain too much, or about the wrong things doesn't make that true either. The fact that they have a lot less to complain about in 2008 than they had in 1960, or 1860, or 1760 doesn't make it true either. If you really care about creating a situation where equal opportunity and treatment exists, work to understand what will create that situation.
3/21/08 7:00 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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"The problem with that cloud is, it is never given a chance to dissipate." It sure is given the chance, and it is dissipating. You think that just because it isn't gone, it isn't going away? You are making the same mistake that Obama accused Wright of making: The profound mistake of Rev. Wright's sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country -- a country that has made it possible for one of his own members to run for the highest office in the land and build a coalition of white and black, Latino and Asian, rich and poor, young and old -- is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen -- is that America can change. That is the true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope -- the audacity to hope -- for what we can and must achieve tomorrow. In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination -- and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past -- are real and must be addressed. "At what point does Slavery stop being used as a crutch?" When the lasting effects are no longer significant. That time hasn't come yet. "Oppression sure that can be used there are still people alive today who suffered from it, but don't try to blame the problems of today on a crime committed 143 years ago. Those that were effected by the oppressive laws of the 60's need to move on." That's really easy to say. But I like how you make it sound like the problems of today are only due to 148-year-old slavery, but in the next sentence talk about the legalized oppression of 50 years ago. Organized and state-based oppression lasted 100 years past slavery. Is it so incredible to imagine that the effects of that oppression might also take at least a couple generations to smooth over?
3/21/08 7:02 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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"Blacks make up 12 % of the population but commit over 52% of the murders. Please use that as my "apology"." What's your point? That they don't deserve equality? That since they murder, it must be their own fault that they still suffer the effects of oppression? That skin color determines whether one is prone to crime? Or just that black people suck, so you don't care about race relations any deeper than that?
3/21/08 8:25 PM
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thepopeye
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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"When the lasting effects are no longer significant. That time hasn't come yet." Please illustrate those effect directly related to slavery? "But I like how you make it sound like the problems of today are only due to 148-year-old slavery, but in the next sentence talk about the legalized oppression of 50 years ago." I am sorry if it came across like that what I was trying to say is I dont think ANY of the issues of today have anything to do with the slavery of 148 years ago. I think that the oppression that was ended some 40 years ago has some impact. I think the greater impact is not from that oppression but from the use of the memory of that oppression as a crutch to excuse failure today. I have argued many times here that I think the problem in the African American world are related to Cultural issues not genetics. Part of that culture is blaming the past for the present and embracing the victim and entitlement mentality. 40 years ago they may not have been able to get many jobs today there are set asides quotas and special rules to insure they can. America is doing her part but as long as People like Jackson and Sharpton and This Rev make it their goal keep that cloud alive then no one is going to move ahead.
3/21/08 8:54 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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"Please illustrate those effect directly related to slavery?" And if I can't reduce this incredibly complex situation to a direct tangible relationship, is that supposed to be proof that the repercussions of slavery don't exist? "Part of that culture is blaming the past for the present and embracing the victim and entitlement mentality." Yeah, some of the lasting effects of slavery are only in the heads of some black people. That doesn't mean that those effects aren't relevant, or that this is the only type of effect. Again, Obama talked about this in his speech. "America is doing her part but as long as People like Jackson and Sharpton and This Rev make it their goal keep that cloud alive then no one is going to move ahead." That's basically true, but ignoring the cloud isn't going to make it go away any quicker either. domernd1, that chick is confused and has entitlement issues. She needs a smack with the stick of perspective and knowledge.
3/21/08 9:28 PM
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thepopeye
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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And if I can't reduce this incredibly complex situation to a direct tangible relationship, is that supposed to be proof that the repercussions of slavery don't exist?" I dont need incredibly complex situations. Just show me where the effects of SLAVERY from over 140 years ago is impacting people today. I am sue you could come up with many examples of how discrimination and oppression of 40 years ago impacts people today, but how about slavery. I suggest that it has zero impact today except the power invoking the memory of slavery can have. The feelings it can create, feelings not based on person exp but on stories about things that happened to people you never knew and may not have even happened to anyone in your family. I have to disagree with you the feelings that people have in their heads are not relevant especially when they have been manufactured, otherwise whats to stop me from using the treatment of the Irish as my excuse or even better the treatment of the Native Americans, simply thinking that someones past misdeeds is the reason for my troubles to day does not make it so.
3/21/08 11:07 PM
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Ison Dart
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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Cadillac, Whites use drugs in much larger numbers and go to jail for it in much smaller numbers. Apology not accepted so I guess it is STFU for you unless you decide to find a way to try to address that issue.
3/21/08 11:24 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 21-Mar-08
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"I dont need incredibly complex situations. Just show me where the effects of SLAVERY from over 140 years ago is impacting people today."

To put it simply slavery established blacks as second-class citizens, and that stigma lasted long after slavery itself was abolished- as evidenced by the legalized discrimination they suffered for the next century. And you can take it from there, Barack:

Legalized discrimination - where blacks were prevented, often through violence, from owning property, or loans were not granted to African-American business owners, or black homeowners could not access FHA mortgages, or blacks were excluded from unions, or the police force, or fire departments – meant that black families could not amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today’s urban and rural communities.

You can't say that once slavery ended, other problems affected the black population of this country but slavery did not- because those other problems were themselves a product of slavery. That discrimination was a product of slavery. You can't separate the two, they are part of a continuum.

"I have to disagree with you the feelings that people have in their heads are not relevant especially when they have been manufactured, otherwise whats to stop me from using the treatment of the Irish as my excuse or even better the treatment of the Native Americans, simply thinking that someones past misdeeds is the reason for my troubles to day does not make it so."

That's a good point. However, the modern treatment of the Irish is truly no longer an issue (as far as I know). The modern treatment of blacks is. The modern treatment of Native Americans is. And (assuming this is relevant because you are Native American) you can recognize that and claim it as a factor in your situation, or deny that it has any effect on you. But if it truly exists, you can't deny that it exists. You won't solve it with that simple denial. And you can't make the decision for everyone else whether they are going to recognize it or not, when it is a real thing that really exists. So the idea itself is part of the problem, whether it is tangible or not. Whether it has any merit or not. And it has to be addressed.

"I am sue you"

I think that's going a little far.
3/22/08 12:35 AM
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Ison Dart
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Edited: 22-Mar-08
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Cadillac, Sure I can. It's true. Goodnight now. Hard to chat with someone who simply wants to be an idiot and not address painful realities.
3/22/08 1:31 AM
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Fraser
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Edited: 22-Mar-08
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Do I have to post the graphs of homicide rates and poverty rates by race again?
3/23/08 12:49 PM
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Ison Dart
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Edited: 23-Mar-08
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"thats one of those painful realities, btw" And? I accept that. I am not afraid to face it in the way that you are afraid to face selective, race based enforcement of drug laws and imprisonment of citizens. You may leave this thread now because I know you won't respond to that.
3/24/08 3:48 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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Look at how the shape of the graphs match for black poverty rates and murder rates.
3/24/08 4:08 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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I think that behavior is much more strongly influenced by environment than many people give credit for. The subjective perception is that we are completely responsible for all of our actions, but that perception exists because our own input regarding our actions are the only thing we consciously perceive. I don't think that you can blame society 100%, or the individual 100%. But if environment had no significant effect on behavior, you wouldn't have correlations like that between poverty and crime rate. Nevertheless, no matter where the blame lies for crime rates, you are right that taking responsibility is what will work them out of it.
3/25/08 1:09 PM
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super chin
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
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these usual arguments aside, did pat buchanan just say black people should be grateful for slavery because it brought them jesus? i missed that the first time i skimmed the article, most likely due to my own latent racism. but seriously, that editorial was awful and pretty much as hateful, if not twice as hateful, as anything rev. wright said in those clips.
3/25/08 1:50 PM
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Le Shat
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
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LOL
3/25/08 2:00 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
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Of course I have, have you? They don't match perfectly, but there is a minor increase near 1980 (worst match), a clear valley at 1985 and another increase in both graphs from 1990-1995, then it drops again at 2000. Total failure is correct- FOR YOU
3/25/08 2:02 PM
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Fraser
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
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I mean, approaching 2000. Obviously only one graph actually has 2000 on it. If you have better graphs, post those and I believe the correlation is even more evident. Those were the best I could find. Even better if you can find more crimes than just homicide.
4/17/08 12:35 AM
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jaseprobst
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Edited: Apr 17 2008 12:00A
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I voted for Pat in 2000 and would vote for him again. He was dead-right about NAFTA, and foretold the immigration issue and its cultural impacts years before the media started paying attention. He also wrote about "The Wichita Massacre" in one of his books. THAT makes what DIDN'T happen in the phony Duke rape case look like a weekend in Cancun.
4/17/08 5:18 AM
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jaseprobst
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Edited: Apr 17 2008 12:00A
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I think we have to look at socioeconomic stratification as the sum total of multiple factors -- genetics, values, environment, etc. Is it any coincidence people who have multigenerational differences in intelligence, mores passed on from parents to children, breeding tendencies, etc., end up in the upper or lower end of the bell curve? Of course not. I went to about 8 different schools before 9th grade and saw a lot of economic differences. The hard truths I realized are that poor people (regardless of color) have dogshit values and are poor for a reason. They get pregnant without a means to support a family, make excuses, aren't particularly smart compared to the mean IQ of the population and, in general, don't match up in several key factors. Genes are a huge part of it. And values. I am living proof of it. I am from an absolutely messed up home with things so off the charts you wouldn't believe -- but the one thing passed on to me was speaking correct English, pursuing education, and, frankly, good brains (both my parents had master's degrees and were pretty sharp). Stupid people breed more...how many 40 year old dumbasses do you know that don't have kids nor have ever been married? It's pretty common for highly educated people.

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