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Jen >> Bench press style mount escape


3/22/08 8:11 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 22-Mar-08 08:17 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 5323
 
Today, Joe came up to my house and gave a private seminar to my students and I. I hadn't seen Joe in many years, so it was great to get instruction from him again. I had created a system of mount escape based on the foot drag and using it very effectively, however, I began to have reservations about that system as I began to find certain weaknesses in it. Besides the weaknesses, I felt the system I had created did not interconnect well with the pin escape system I was using. So, I decided to throw out the system I had created and replace it with one that I felt was more effective and that interconnected better with the pin escape system. Several years ago, I had Joe do a seminar on, what I called, the bench press style of mount escaping. I didn't really practice what I had learned in that seminar because my focus at that time was mainly pin escapes. Now that I have a deeper understanding of pin escapes and had seen Joe style of mount escapes, I felt I could go into this seminar with a much better mindset. This seminar, like all of the ones I do with Joe, was done like it was a private lesson of mine. It was done in a reverse engineering method. To make a long story short, the escapes are freakin' awesome, especially when you feel Joe demonstrate it. You feel like you are just flying off the mount as soon as Joe begins to move. With my knowledge of pin escapes, it was so much easier to understand this method of mount escape this time. I also loved this system because it works gi, no gi, and NHB. After the seminar, Joe and I talked briefly and I asked him if a lot of people asked him about pin escapes as he travelled around and did seminars and private lessons. He said that when I talked a lot about it in the past, many people asked, however, people don't really ask about it anymore. He basically said that most people aren't willing to take the time to get good at pin escapes and endure the discomfort of being pinned for an extended period of time. Joe also told me that my method of learning (reverse engineering) helped him be able to explain things he does by instinct. He really liked the information came out of the seminar and suggested that he and I make an instructional video on it as he felt that our cooperative effort worked out really well when it came to teaching. Unfortunately, I told him that I no longer make videos and no longer had the software to do it.
3/22/08 8:28 PM
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pats0
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Edited: 22-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/14/2003
Posts: 369
Are you willing to share the details on the techniques involved in this? Statements like this: "To make a long story short, the escapes are freakin' awesome" are quite torturous when you don't actually tell us the techniques. The main bench press type escape that I am familiar with is one where you hip up and then support your opponents weight by placing your hand on his hips and then pull the butterfly.
3/22/08 9:43 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 22-Mar-08 10:09 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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The hard thing for people to understand when it comes to systems like this is that there is no single technique that defines the system. The system is governed by principles, not techniques. What you do all depends on what you feel from your opponent. If you are the person mounting on top, it doesn't matter whether you are up high, low and tight, grapevined, etc.... You just feel like you are getting pushed off. The only thing I can say is the the system is not based on power bridging. In fact, "basic upma" isn't really part of the system. Most of the time you are pulling guard. If you do roll the opponent over, it it not because it was with a power bridge, but rather they are so off balance that they are practically tipping over. With my students now, I will no longer teach them to trap an arm and foot and umpa/bridge.
3/22/08 10:07 PM
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pats0
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Edited: 22-Mar-08
Member Since: 09/14/2003
Posts: 370
I've read your description on your systems before, which is why I used "techniques" and not technique. Obviously you do different techniques dependent on the situation. You can call them movements, postures, etc. (and they are obviously based on certain principles) Most people call the movements that you do in combat technqiues. It seems to me that you use verbiage and think that others don't understand your concept of system as an excuse not to share what you know. Obviously you are under no obligation to share what you know, especially not for free on the internet. But since you say that you won't even release DVDs on this, it's very frustrating and I'm wonder why you even post this. It's kind of like having a friend who's telling you about how great his new toy is and how amazing and fun it is, and then never showing it to you.
3/22/08 10:28 PM
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GrdStorm
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Edited: 22-Mar-08
Member Since: 08/17/2002
Posts: 540
I would have to somewhat agree with pats0. This is in no way an attack on you Mr. Jen, I enjoy and learned a lot from your instructionals. I've always heard a lot of about the bench press pin escape method however most of us have rarely seen what it really is. If I am to assume anything out of your statement, the only way to get this information is to travel to you or to Joe and attend either a seminar in hopes that is the topic covered or take private lessons from you guys? That sounds fair enough however some of us live a long way from California.
3/22/08 11:28 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 23-Mar-08 12:56 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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I'm letting you know that there was some extraordinarily great information being passed along by Joe. Have you ever thought about the fact that Joe makes a living from teaching BJJ? Joe's school is open for anyone to go to. Joe is also available for seminars anywhere around the world. There are certain things, like these escapes, that Joe is really good at. Then there are other things, like closed guard, that Joe is not the best at. So for those who end up training with Joe, it would seem advisable to ask him to cover things he is really good at. If you want this information, then do what I did and host a seminar. Or do what others have done and fly to CA and train with Joe. If you can't do that, then you may not be able to get the information. I would like a Mercedes Benz but I don't have enough money to afford it, so I drive a less expensive car. That's just life. So many people in BJJ want to get something for nothing. When I started in BJJ, I would drive up to Los Angeles from San Diego with Roy Harris to train with black belts to get information once a week because at that time, there were no instructional videos, books, etc... That's a 2 hour drive one way. How many people are willing to drive 2 hours one way just to attend a group class? As a brown belt, when I moved to northern CA, but felt that I needed some way to really improve my skills to get to black belt. So, I took private lessons with Marco Nascimento once a week. That cost me $200/month. Then I would fly Joe Moreira up once a month to do 4 hours of privates over a weekend. That cost me $400 each month. So at a certain time, I was spending $600/month on my BJJ training. You don't think that I had to make some sacrifices in order for me to do that? Considering that there are people out there, besides just me, who make major sacrifices to get information, you get frustrated when I don't give you all that I learned free on the internet or make a DVD giving you everything for $30? I find this sense of entitlement a bit odd. Marcelo Garcia is doing a seminar this weekend in Monterey which is about 1.5 hours away. That seminar costs more than I am willing to pay for a seminar. When someone later posts how great Garcia's seminar and techniques were, you won't see me asking details to the techniques that were taught. Those who attended were willing to pay their hard earned money for that information and I was not. That's why they have the information and I do not. If they want to share what they learned then that's fine, however, if they don't, I will never ask nor will I question why they chose not to. I will never say, "Why did you talk about how great Garcia's techniques were if you weren't willing to share them?" I understand that positive posts like that simply encourage others to attend Garcia seminars or host them in the future.
3/23/08 1:13 AM
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Bolo
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Edited: 23-Mar-08 01:35 AM
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By the way, I just spoke to Joe and talked to him about possibly working with him and to teach his style and systems of jiu-jitsu in public seminars. So there may be a way that everyone can get the same information that I have gotten in the exact same manner that I got it.
3/23/08 6:41 AM
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easternfighter
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Edited: 23-Mar-08 06:47 AM
Member Since: 04/19/2002
Posts: 383
I currently use BP mount system like secondary supporting system for situations when I have really hard time with foot drag stuff. I am really looking forward to learn more intricated details and make it my go to system. I feel it blends awesome with our pin escapes game. That is why I am going to bring Bolo to my country soon :) Radek brown belt under Bolo
3/23/08 1:17 PM
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le0nidis
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Edited: 23-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 10
Radek, You will LOVE it!!! It felt like I was floating over Joe when he was demonstrating. Truly great stuff. Thanks again to Michael and Joe for putting this together. I think this collaboration with Joe will do good things for anyone who can attend.
3/23/08 10:27 PM
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groundfighter2000
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Edited: 23-Mar-08
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ttt
3/24/08 12:30 AM
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Hunter V
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 3617
"It felt like I was floating over Joe when he was demonstrating" Exactly. I have never had that type of feeling when people have been able to escape my pins. Now I wish I had asked him about mount escapes when I got to do a seminar with him!
3/24/08 1:28 AM
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GrdStorm
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
Member Since: 08/17/2002
Posts: 541
someone set something up for NYC!
3/24/08 11:21 AM
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paw
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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Mike, Was Joe's "bench press" style easy to learn by the seminar attendees?
3/24/08 1:00 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Yes and no.... The higher belts and more experienced people obviously caught on quicker than the lower belts and beginners. Those who were more experienced in doing pin escapes caught on quicker than those less experienced with pin escapes. It was much easier for everyone because I was able to figure out universal concepts and principles of what Joe was doing. It was easier with me explaining certain things because many people still had a lot of trouble understanding Joe's English. Even if the less experienced beginners were not able to perform the system perfectly, they at least mentally understood what needed to be done and would be able to explain why certain things were done if someone more experienced was demonstrating it.
3/24/08 1:05 PM
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groundfighter2000
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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"It seems to me that you use verbiage and think that others don't understand your concept of system as an excuse not to share what you know. Obviously you are under no obligation to share what you know, especially not for free on the internet. But since you say that you won't even release DVDs on this, it's very frustrating and I'm wonder why you even post this. It's kind of like having a friend who's telling you about how great his new toy is and how amazing and fun it is, and then never showing it to you." Hey Bolo, I'm not trying to start an argument either, but I agree with certain points pats0 made. I read your response and agree that many people have a sense of entitlement and I, for one, am not asking you to divulge the material you learned from Joe. But, when it comes to you talking about your teaching BJJ in systems. I've read all your posts where you discuss it. And then u say it has to be experienced, and we're left with "systems is where its at but i can't explain to u what it is." I'm very interested in this concept of BJJ systems but I don't completely understand it and I wish you or perhaps ur students who post on here could elaborate.
3/24/08 1:36 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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groundfighter2000, I understand your interest. If you look at BJJ, you will see many people like Joe who have incredible skills on the mat, but they don't really know how to explain and express the things they do by instinct. We see this all the time in BJJ. If you ask Joe to teach some techniques, he may show you things you have seen before. If I just said, "Joe, teach mount escapes", he would just teach things that I've already seen. However, when I reverse engineered the things he does by instinct, I came across things I have never seen before. Similarly, I simply don't know how to effectively express what it is that I have done or do. I just know how to do it. I can tell you that Eddie Bravo has a system, but then the way I do it is different from him. No one taught me how to do it, so I can't explain it because no one explained it to me. This idea was kind of like a slow evolution over many years. There have been those who were curious enough about systems that they ended up training with me. After I would teach them a system, I would say to them, "You wanted me to explain how I would describe a system and now that I have shown it to you, you explain it to me in a couple sentences". The answer is all the same, "I can't". Hopefully the interest is high enough in a seminar with Joe and I. This is the public's opportunity to see what I am talking about and maybe after that someone can articulate it.
3/24/08 3:56 PM
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sayonaisse
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
Member Since: 07/20/2005
Posts: 535
It really is hard to describe the systems guys. I've learned a lot of them and you are constantly transistioning your strength and defensive posturing by the slightest movements of your opponent. If he moves an inch to the left you defensive posturing moves to counter it's strength and you begin to "Feel" the counters, or "feel" the holes for escape rather than trying to memorize steps of a move like most BJJ is understood these days. I was telling my friend that it might sound like something dumb out of a kung fu movie but I gain more "feel" and understanding when I train Michael's style with my eyes closed. I roll a lot these days with my eyes closed because I don't have to see my opponent, just by this body instict you develop you can feel the entry, or the defense, or the counter, and the timing too. What tripped me out was at the end of the Moriera seminar, Joe told us to try practicing this stuff with our eyes closed and to feel the base, the pressure and I chuckled in the inside because a 7th degree blackbelt just made me feel like I was on the right path with my training and it felt good. So describing this stuff move for move just is not going to happen over the internet. Even in a book it would be hard picture by picture. A DVD is the closest you could get but it still wouldn't do it justice to learn these systems over a DVD. If you really want to understand it, I am pretty sure if would have to taught live.
3/24/08 6:58 PM
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rene.r
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 6549
Bolo just uses strength. It's purely guns. That's the big secret. -- He's actually explained it multiple times, he's just putting himself in the strongest position possible, putting his opponent in the weakest possible position, feeling for an opening, and then using leverage and momentum to exploit it. Does that help? Probably not, even given the reams and reams of posts Bolo's made about it over the years. When you go and train with him, its 99% hands on with him, doing drills to build up the concept, then with him watching you with others and making live corrections. It's a process. I've trained with Bolo for a few years and when he gets a new system, he's never been able to explain it even over the phone where we can interact. I have to get my ass on a plane and go there and feel what he's talking about. Everything has benefits and drawbacks. The benefits to Bolo's approach is that he teaches you how to fish. The drawback is that the way he teaches it is not conducive to hands-off explanation. (Maybe when the Holo-net goes live, and Bolo and Joe can beam into the living room via iChat 3d, this will no longer be a problem).
3/24/08 7:03 PM
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rene.r
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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BTW- Pats0 and GrdStorm, Your current strategy in communicating seems more likely to frustrate Bolo and get him to talk less. If you look at past threads, people who've achieved the most success in getting information have been not only polite and appreciative, but specific with their enquiring. The problem with the net is that it is intrinsically an unfair method of communication. You can spend 1 min typing a single sentence that require 2 hours and 3 pages to respond to. What entitles you to think Bolo owes you that time or effort with no investment or recompense on your part? Just curious. (When I wanted to know about Bench Press, I drove 7 hours to do a private. When I wanted to know more, I flew cross-coast to do an intensive. I believe others have flown far, far further than that. That's the perspective I'm coming from.)
3/24/08 7:29 PM
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pats0
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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Posts: 382
I don't think he's entitled to write anything. I never said he was. I clearly stated that: "Obviously you are under no obligation to share what you know, especially not for free on the internet." I just think an example to illustrate what he means by bench press escape would've been nice. It's not like wanted him to describe his entire system. I didn't really read the post as a recommendation to go to Joe's seminars. Probably because I don't think I would ever going to California specifically for a seminar. This why the original post seemed odd to me and I said: "But since you say that you won't even release DVDs on this, it's very frustrating and I'm wonder why you even post this." If you feel that driving 7 hours hours and flying from coast to coast for instruction from Bolo is worth it, then all the power to you. But with todays technology, if you wanted to learn BJJ (or someone wanted to teach you), then there are less expensive ways of going about doing it. We are no longer in the days where you must travel great distances for good BJJ instruction. Bolo did, but he got the reward of being able to learn BJJ before most people and could therefore teach it when many people wanted to learn.
3/24/08 7:59 PM
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rene.r
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Edited: 24-Mar-08 08:06 PM
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Pats0, Bolo, at least to my reading, wrote the post because he had what he felt was an "awesome" seminar and was excited about it. Is that really so impenetrable a motivation? You don't have to travel anywhere to learn BJJ. You don't even have to learn BJJ. However, if I want to learn twister from Bravo, back control from Garcia, or bench press from Mike or Joe, I either have to travel or arrange for them to travel to me. And the benefit of doing that, at least for me, was getting in before Bolo retired from public teaching. As to "less expensive", it's hard to find a teacher willing to really teach (not just pass along cookie-cutter moves while they chat on the cell with their friends) and able to teach in a way that lets a given student learn as fast as possible. Taking 10 years at $100 dollars a year to attain a certain level of skill, or taking 2 years at $400 dollars, which is more expensive? Which is more efficient a use of my irreplaceable time? For me, I feel Bolo's lessons are zero-fluff, suit the way I learn, and cut mucho time off my learning curve. What's that worth to me?
3/24/08 8:17 PM
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pats0
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Edited: 24-Mar-08
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Posts: 383
"Bolo, at least to my reading, wrote the post because he had what he felt was an "awesome" seminar and was excited about it. Is that really so impenetrable a motivation?" Like I said, a part of my reasoning for stating what I stated was because I didn't read it that way (with no fault of Bolo) and I gave my reasons for this in my previous post. Also, the thread title here wasn't about a seminar, but about the technique itself. So again, I read it as "look at this technique, you will never know it". "I want to learn twister from Bravo, back control from Garcia, or bench press from Mike or Joe, I either have to travel or arrange for them to travel to me." You can buy their book/DVDs (much cheaper than flying to them) and Marcelo and Bravo do seminar around North America. I am not familiar with hosting seminars, nor do I own an academy. But I would also image that it would be easier to find people wanting to go to a Marcelo or Bravo seminar than Joe or Bolo (not because they are less skilled, but because they are less popular). "And the benefit of doing that, at least for me, was getting in before Bolo retired from public teaching." Which is exactly why it's frustrating to people like me in Canada. "As to "less expensive", it's hard to find a teacher willing to really teach (not just pass along cookie-cutter moves while they chat on the cell with their friends) and able to teach in a way that lets a given student learn as fast as possible." This is a fair argument. Bolo does seem to be a very good teacher. How many different BJJ instructors have you taken multiple privates from?
3/25/08 6:28 AM
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cdog1955
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
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I like to call it "Dynamic Framing" !
3/25/08 8:43 AM
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easternfighter
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
Member Since: 04/19/2002
Posts: 385
Its all about quality of information and about priorities dude. I am willing to travel across the world in order to get intensive private training with Bolo/usually at least 8-10 days / and also bring him here to my country ( Slovakia/Eu/)There is no way to get such kind of stuff(Bolo? bjj systematic approach) anywhere else /or from another resources/. I believe anyone who is willing to reach high level in BJJ / or in anything/have to put some serious sacrifices there...and I am not talking just about time, effort,....money are serious topics too. But I understand, majority people are just average hobbist guys, ...and that is fine. But do not expect the same progress :) Radek brown belt
3/25/08 4:05 PM
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sayonaisse
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
Member Since: 07/20/2005
Posts: 539
Radek is on the button. I travel 300+ miles (both ways) to see Michael because to me it is well worth it. My last black belt instructor is one everyone knows on here and he trains just the next city over. But I was not getting this high level detail from my previous BJJ coach, not even close. On this last trip I took a purple belt friend who also didn't realize what we were talking about when we described a seminar or private with Michaels teaching method. It may be frustrating to a lot of people but my friend understood after he left. And there is almost no way it could be described in a book with pics and you still couldn't get the feel of it in a DVD. It would suck to want to learn this stuff but you live in Canada but that's just the reality of it.

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