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Jen >> Bench press style mount escape


3/25/08 5:21 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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By the way, rene.r actually lives in Canada and on the east coast.
3/25/08 6:31 PM
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GrdStorm
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Edited: 25-Mar-08
Member Since: 08/17/2002
Posts: 545
So Bolo, do you have a school or do you teach private classes/private lessons out of your home? What do you charge? I understand if you don't want to make that information public, however I'd be interested in possibly traveling to train with you sometime. Please e-mail me at tailiu315@yahoo.com if you get the chance. Thanks!
3/26/08 8:08 AM
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tudor
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/10/2005
Posts: 389
"There is no way to get such kind of stuff(Bolo? bjj systematic approach) anywhere else /or from another resources/." Have you encountered EVERY "resource" in the BJJ community to make that statement? BTW, I totally agree with why Bolo doesn't feel the need to "teach" his style over the internet, especially (and I don't think Bolo made it very clear) it can't be taught in this manner.
3/26/08 10:06 AM
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easternfighter
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
Member Since: 04/19/2002
Posts: 386
By explaining my personal reasons why I feel such way is based on my OWN experience , however, BJJ is never ending process and I really belive we will see in near future big step forward in coaching approach ...which pretty much create very unique teaching styles/systems.
3/26/08 2:41 PM
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Ausgepicht
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Edited: 26-Mar-08 03:37 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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I've traveled all over the country for years and spent 10s of thousands of dollars (including on your tapes), so to claim that someone feels entitled because they would like an example is unfair. YOU created the thread. Someone asks for a description and their character is judged? That's absurd. Bolo, you either posted to brag about your experience (nothing wrong with that) or to promote your potential future seminars w/ Joe (or that). Otherwise, what was the point to making the thread? Why not give everyone the benefit of the doubt and maybe someone will understand? We're not all dense and beginners. Rene, it's to be expected that you will be biased and rally to Michael's side, but the bias has removed your objectivity. Pats and GrdStorm were polite and respectful and came across as genuinely intrigued and I don't know how you got that their intent was to frustrate and get him to talk less. Is he really that fragile? When I saw "Bench press style mount escape" I instantly thought there was going to be a video or description of...well....a bench press style mount escape. I think that's pretty fair. Bolo, has done a LOT on this site and his methods and videos are honestly one of my favorites to this day, for that I am grateful. I think he's brilliant. He's certainly NOT obligated at all to go into any detail, but he did create the thread. I hope this is coming across as respectful. I have respect for both of you guys, but think your criticism and judgement of Pats and Grdstorm are unfair and unwarranted. -Joe
3/26/08 5:56 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
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Joe, I made the post to share my thoughts on a positive experience.
3/26/08 7:07 PM
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GrdStorm
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
Member Since: 08/17/2002
Posts: 546
I didn't even know I was being criticized LOL
3/26/08 11:53 PM
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rene.r
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Edited: 26-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Hey Joe, If I choose to buy a car because it, at the time, suits my needs more than a truck, am I biased towards cars. Do I lack objectivity towards trucks? Or do I simply have bias towards my own needs at the time (which may well be different later) and the objectivity to fill those needs. My comment to Pats0 and GrdStorm was simple. The tactics they were using were not achieving the goals they wanted to achieve, so either they weren't the right tactics or that wasn't the real goal. Assuming their goal (and interest) was genuine, I suggested a change in tactics that may help them better, faster achieve their goals. And no worries on being respectful or not. It's the internet. We seem to always devolve into meta (when we're not asking leading questions or making everything personal, 'natch). However, your own reaction to the thread, IMHO, is both biased, non- objective, and grossly unfair. (How's that for leading personal meta?) Bolo posted about his seminar, was called torturous and asked for details by Pats0. Bolo responded, but in a way Pats0 didn't like to such an extent Pats0 personalized the thread and attacked with "It seems to me that you use verbiage and think that others don't understand your concept of system as an excuse not to share what you know." Which GrdStorm agreed with. Thread pretty much went downhill from there. How about, instead of a personalized attack, Pats0 has gone with something like "Wow, that sounds interesting, would it work in situation X?" or "Thanks! Does it matter if the guy is big?" or "That's cool, but I'm a little confused, do you mean...?" Any of which have generally lead to Bolo sharing more in the past. You catch more flies with honey is a cliche for a reason. So, turn about being fair play, Joe, I'd ask you to re-examine your own bias, objectivity, and reading of the thread, and see if you can't see where others' are coming from. (Pats0 too). Anyway, enough meta. No more wasted bandwidth.
3/27/08 12:41 AM
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pats0
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Edited: 27-Mar-08 12:51 AM
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When I stated: "It seems to me that you use verbiage and think that others don't understand your concept of system as an excuse not to share what you know." This was an observation that I made from reading many of Bolo's threads. I stated that Bolo is under no obligation to share anything. To me it's just that he's not upfront and doesn't say "I don't want to give this information out for free on the internet." Instead he talks about how it is too complex to be shared in writing or through tapes, etc. It wasn't meant be an assault on his character. I find it contemptuous that you treat people as objects from which you mine knowledge and use "tactics." If Bolo doesn't want to share what he known for free, then that is fine. My comment was that he should be more upfront about it and not use other excuses. I'm not going to try to "trick" him into sharing his knowledge with me. I have more respect for people than that. I like to think that I am upfront with them and hope that they would be upfront with me.
3/27/08 12:54 PM
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Ausgepicht
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Edited: 27-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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rene, if I was wrong than why has this same thread blown up on the BJJ forum? I stand by my objectivity...I have given credit to both Bolo and the other two fellas. "is both biased," I have nothing invested since I don't know any of the 3. However, YOU do. As is alluded to by MANY posts on the other thread and past last thread. Good enough. I don't expect to convince you that your friend is wrong. Not gonna happen. I am an unbiased observer just stating my opinion. You can think I am biased all you want, but until you explain WHY I would be biased it's just a phantom.
3/27/08 1:02 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 27-Mar-08 01:26 PM
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"Instead he talks about how it is too complex to be shared in writing or through tapes, etc." I think you need to look at your own biasness. When I said it was too complex to share in writing that's what I meant- it is too complex that I am unable to accurately describe it in writing or on video. It is about my inability to do something and since I cannot describe it accurately, I rather not even try because I know how people jump to conclusions here on the forum. My point was made further by people like eaternfighter, rene.r, and sayonaisse who have seen and learned my systems. I have told them that if they are able to accurately describe these systems in writing then feel free to try to do so. However, just like myself, they are unable to do so. Sayonaisse even talked about trying to describe it to a purple belt friend and the guy couldn't understand what he was saying until he experienced it first hand. Your own biasness assumed 2 things from this and both of these things had a negative tone. First, that I was acting out of selfishness, simply did not want to share information, and not being upfront about it. The second assumption was that I was saying that you all were not intelligent enough to understand. "why has this same thread blown up on the BJJ forum?" The main reason people are worked up on the BJJ forum is because of what I said in regards no longer teaching upa. I don't see any talk about that over here.
3/27/08 2:30 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 27-Mar-08 02:36 PM
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In fairness to Bolo, he isn't the only one who couldn't articulate or describe a system. Years ago on the old INTHGUARD forum Lloyd Irving tried to described a system of drills he learned in Brazil that he adapted and teaches to his students. He simply couldn't describe although he tried. Years later, on this forum, some of his students including Mike Fowler tried to describe exactly Lloyd's system of instruction and the drills they do and even he had trouble describing certain things. Some of Relson's students had the same trouble when they tried to describe Relson's unique way of Gjj, which is said to be highly effective for the street. I personally don't even read posts where someone tries to describe a technique or drill. I'm a visual persona and when it comes to physical movements and techniques, words NEVER seem to do the job of pictures. So I don't fault Bolo for not describing his system in words.
3/27/08 5:30 PM
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pats0
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Edited: 27-Mar-08 05:37 PM
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"When I said it was too complex to share in writing that's what I meant- it is too complex that I am unable to accurately describe it in writing or on video." I understand that 1 on 1 instruction is always going to be better than seeing something on video or having it described. But the fact is that no one knows what you mean by bench press escape and to say that you can't clarify it in writing or in a video is simply not true. To say that it involves using the hands to press on the hips if opponent does X as an example, etc. (again I known that it is a system, but even a chunk of the system would clarify it greatly). Obviously you can't encompass the whole system in description and someone might need to experience the pressure and timing first hand to get a true understand of what your talking about, but that doesn't mean that an description or video means nothing. If someone wanted to known how to do an armbar, then I could describe the position in text on the internet. Of course they probably won't be able to do it exactly right and won't be tapping black belts with it, but they will be closer to understanding how to do an armbar nonetheless. If I showed him a video then he would be able to do it even better. Furthermore, you said so yourself in a later post that, "If you want this information, then do what I did and host a seminar." So obviously this is part of your reason for not sharing, not only the complexity (and again you have no obligation to share).
3/30/08 4:45 PM
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nogidavid
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Edited: 30-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/13/2006
Posts: 979
can someone explain some of the principles of the escape? the rest i can try to get on my own :)
3/30/08 10:54 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 30-Mar-08
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Hmm....here's some off the top of my head in no particular order.... 1. The arms mainly do pushing motions, no pulling motions. 2. No power bridging in which two feet are planted on the ground and the hips drive upward as high as possible. 3. Extreme off balance must be created the instant you begin to move. 4. Move the opponent in the direction you feel his weight and/or momentum moving. 5. You are always moving the opponent at an incline or decline angle from where you start, however, you generally are always finishing with angle that is a decline in relation to your body. 6. Your arms don't touch the legs unless off balance has been created.
3/31/08 2:12 AM
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keseki
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Edited: 31-Mar-08
Member Since: 05/27/2003
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Where does Joe place his hands, if I may ask? On opponent's rips, I speculate....
3/31/08 2:56 AM
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Bolo
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Edited: 31-Mar-08 03:12 AM
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It all depends on the opponent's body positioning. Different body positions dictate different arm positions. In addition, the opponent can change something as small as where he places his hands on ground when in a position a few inches and it may change where your arms are positioned. The only definitive answer I can give is that the arms are always placed in a position that is biomechanically the strongest. Here's the thing, Joe would be asked a question like that, the answer was always, "It depends." It always depends on exactly what the opponent is doing. Give him a specific situation and he can give you a specific answer. However, that answer only applies to that specific situation. The problem is that Joe (and my) definition of specific is very different from most other people's definition of specific. For example, you can say, "OK, what would you do if someone hand one hand in the collar (like the beginning of a collar choke), the other hand on the ground, and both knees near the bottom person's armpits?" The question would seem specific, but it is truly not. So if you got 5 people to get into that situation on top of Joe, you may see Joe to 5 different things. Why? Because each person will move and position themselves slightly different. I'm not talking about giving resistance either. I'm talking about positioning their body with no resistance for Joe to demonstrate. And we actually saw this during the seminar. When I was on the mount, Joe escaped a certain way. Then a student of mine would position himself the same as I did, yet Joe escaped a different way. So in Joe's and my opinion, the definition of specific is to put a body on top of us.
3/31/08 7:15 AM
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cdog1955
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Edited: 31-Mar-08
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5. You are always moving the opponent at an incline or decline angle from where you start, however, you generally are always finishing with angle that is a decline in relation to your body. I had to read that several times and i finally got your point, would you agree that ties in directly with: 3. Extreme off balance must be created the instant you begin to move. Actually thinking about it point 4 has to be directly related too: 4. Move the opponent in the direction you feel his weight and/or momentum moving. So could we put it in a sequence: The arm do pushing (framing) motions to move the opponent in the direction his weight/pressure is moving at an incline/decline angle causing an off balance situation. ?
3/31/08 12:32 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 31-Mar-08 01:05 PM
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Yes, however, I wouldn't use the word "framing" though because it gives the impression of a square or rectangle thus giving the impression that the arms are always bent or connected to each other (like the framing in headlock escapes) which isn't always the case.
3/31/08 5:21 PM
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nogidavid
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Edited: 31-Mar-08
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i'm gonna have to come train with yuo sometime i think, michael lol
5/13/08 1:50 PM
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jb57
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Is this it?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7XQQW9Xqyyc
5/13/08 4:23 PM
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Bolo
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That's a little bit of it.
5/14/08 12:48 AM
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cincibill
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Member Since: 5/21/06
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Mike:
At 1:45 in the video, Joe x's his arms and pushes him off as opposed to combing him off in the next example. Did he X push and not comb because he was on the front side, not over the top like the second example?
5/15/08 4:34 PM
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JRockwell
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 Very cool video!  Too funny, with the audio quality and Joe's accent, he might as well be speaking Swahili.

5/20/08 11:34 PM
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dany_my
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"And we actually saw this during the seminar. When I was on the mount, Joe escaped a certain way. Then a student of mine would position himself the same as I did, yet Joe escaped a different way. So in Joe's and my opinion, the definition of specific is to put a body on top of us."

Actually bolo, your statement reprinted above, really makes a lot of sense. Maybe you can do a little reverse engineering of what Joe is doing in the mount escape video pasted above. I tried the move a couple of times but am still having trouble getting a hang of it unless i actually bump up to create extreme off balance. As u noted, but i was having my partner countering me at the get go (to be fair)since it was too easy the first time and it didn't feel real.

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