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BJJGround Forum >> Marcelo's Choking position


4/18/08 8:09 AM
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LeoKirby
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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Last night's class dealt with one of the thing's I think Marcelo does best, but still I feel many people do not understand.

In the first seminar I did with Marcelo 2 years ago he taught this. I have worked it to a degree but not as much as I should, so it was great to see him teach it last night.

I have heard many people talk about Marcelo as a great athlete, fast, explosive, etc. etc. All of this is true of course, but it doesn't take away from the fact that he has exceptional skill and technique and he spends hours trying to perfect that technique.

If you train with him you realize he is always training and teaching you how to win against top competitors, not just how to perform a technique. Often he will teach something and if it is a little different than we have learned it before he will explain, "If your opponent is good you must be ready to do it this way."

I think he way he gets position to finish the RNC is a great example of this.

What he taught was this:

1. When your opponent turtles you get the over under grip and hold really hard with your chest pressed into his back.

2. Get to the balls of your feet and keep your knees bent and weight low. Sometimes he has a knee on the mat, but he likes to do it this way.

3. A experienced bjj guy will not stay in turtle, he will roll as soon as he can. He cannot roll towards you because of your weight on his back. So he will roll away, over his opposite shoulder.

4. As he rolls you need to try to get your knee that is closest to his hips over his back and on the mat before his back touches. This is very important and I think the key to this position. If he rolls and your knee is not under his back he can slide out and get his elbow on the mat for a traditional escape from the RNC.

5. As he rolls he will insert the near side hook. This is the hook that is important. The other hook does not have to go in yet (or at all for that matter)

6. The hook that you have inside can help you roll your opponent because you must have him on the side that you are choking on, what I call "the choking side.

In other words, if you are choking him with your right arm you want him on his right side. This way if he tries to slide to the mat he is sliding into the choke and not away from it.

7. Now you need to keep him on that side as you try to trap an arm, get the other hook in or go right to the finish.

There are tons of details that Marcelo has for finishing and trapping the arm, but the point of this thread was to discuss last nights class and the importance of the roll and getting the knee under the back so they can't escape the choking position.
4/18/08 8:16 AM
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LeoKirby
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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This is the clip of the Marcelo/Shaolin match. I think it shows great detail of what Marcelo teaches.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_8O-fq-NI4

At 7 seconds Shaolin is trying to escapes and turtles and quickly rolls, as Marcelo says an expereinced opponent will do.

Marcelo does not get the knee on the mat before Shaolin's back gets there so you will see how he pulls him tight and rolls another half turn to get him to the choking side.

Once he is on that side Shaolin will attempt to escape by sliding to the mat, but he is sliding into the choke, not away from it. Marcelo is quick to control him with his legs as he finishes the choke.

One of the things he has taught before that works well for me is not demonstrated here in this match.

I find it very difficult to get my knee to the mat before the opponent's back touches, but if I Cobra stretch really hard and keep rolling I can normally pull them with me another half turn to get them to the choking side the way Marcelo does in this match. 

4/18/08 8:53 AM
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JRockwell
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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 Gold!

4/18/08 9:40 AM
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John Frankl
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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Platinum! Any information about how he teaches/conceptualizes the actual choke? Where does he like his hands, head, breath, etc.? Thanks, John
4/18/08 9:52 AM
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LeoKirby
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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I started showing my friends some of this once and they told me they wanted to have a seminar with Marcelo just on finishing the RNC.

Tons of details that he does on that. I will cover a few things since I have taken some really great things from your seminar dvd that I saw a couple of years ago.

1. Instead of getting both hooks all of the time, he gets the hook on the choking side and often puts the other foot on their hip. Normally they have this knee bent high to stop the other hook from getting in.

2. The opponent will often drop his hand on the non choking side down to block the second hook, which is what he is baiting.

3. When this happens he takes his non choking hand and reaches inside that arm and grabs the wrist/lower forearm.

4. He pulls that back and as if he is getting a hammerlock, though you don't need to pull it that far, basically you stuff that hand into your own crotch.

5. Then you take your foot off of his hip and and instead of inserting that hook you bring it a little higher and pinch that knee really tight into the arm. The arm seems like it is not trapped very tight but he will not be able to move it.

6. He now has a two on one and starts working the choke.

A great example of this is in ADCC 2003 with the opponent who has sometype of rash guard with black sleeves. Don't know his name but I remember that because I kept getting Marcelo with his black rash guard confused with this guy. I will try to find that match to post the clip but Jeff Rockwell will have it before I do. But this is exactly how he finishes him. 

4/18/08 10:02 AM
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LeoKirby
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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A couple of other things:

When he has the choking hand in place and the other hand underhooking the guy's arm he never grabs his own wrist to keep the grip over under grip. He covers the choking arm hand with the other hand and grips that way.

The reason for this is the guy will reach up to grab and pull the choking arm down. If you grab your wrist he can grip the hand and pull down. If you cover your own hand he will have to grab inside it on the fore arm or wrist and he will not have the strength to pull your arm down if you are holding it with the other one.

The way he strips the hands away is key also. He just uses the palms of his hand and pushes. No fingers, no pulling. Just uses the palm constantly pushing off over and over again.

He will work the thumb up over and over again until he has the choking hand in and is grabbing the guys opposite shoulder so it can't be pulled off, then he goes for the finish, he never goes for the choke until the arm is deep in their throat.

Another point I think people miss is cobra stretching the guy. If he is not getting the finish he cobra stretches hard and stretches the guy out. 

4/18/08 10:07 AM
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LeoKirby
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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Here is that match:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBaSmNZ9hCc

At 2:46 he traps the arm the way I described above. 

4/18/08 10:53 AM
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andre
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Leo, I took a private with Marcelo a couple (maybe 3?) years ago on this very subject of taking the back. He taught it exactly the way you described. It was awesome, and it works perfectly. My timing isnt great for getting the knee across his back when the opponent rolls away from you, but it still ends up working. Awesome. Thanks!
4/18/08 10:54 AM
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JRockwell
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 Dammit!  I get on Facebook for 5 minutes, and I miss the Bat Signal!  I am slipping, sorry Leo. :)

Leo showed me that arm trap briefly when I was down there.  Like he said, it doesn't seem like it should be that tight on your arm, but it is REALLY tight.

4/18/08 11:19 AM
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JRockwell
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 "Another point I think people miss is cobra stretching the guy. If he is not getting the finish he cobra stretches hard and stretches the guy out."

 

I definitely don't do this enough. 

4/18/08 11:25 AM
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Ausgepicht
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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TiTTy for anything Marcelo!
4/18/08 11:25 AM
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LeoKirby
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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Andre, thanks. I could never get the knee to the mat before the guy's back either and then I watched the Shaolin match and realized I didn't have to.

So I asked Marcelo what he did and he showed how he really stretched them out. I don't think that is obvious in the Shoalin match, but once I started doing that I found they could never stop me from getting that extra half a roll that I needed to the them on the choking side.

Jeff, that's ok, I had a whole office staff searching just so I could get it up before you. 

4/18/08 12:10 PM
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baileboy
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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Not Marcelo but this really helped me to finish RNCs

http://www.grapplearts.com/2006/11/roadmap-for-rear-naked-choke.htm
4/18/08 1:01 PM
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tucker713
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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Thanks Leo - great stuff...You should start a blog on the stuff you go over in class. thanks again
4/18/08 1:16 PM
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LeoKirby
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tucker713, Thanks. I am slowly posting more here. Actually bought a membership finally. Will probably buy a pro membership just to promote Marcelo's school. I know there is a school of thought out there that you should not do that unless someone pays for it, but Marcelo and Tatiana know that I post about his classes and they know how much I support what he is doing, just as Kon did in NY and still does. I feel the best way to do that is talk about what he teaches. You will only get the real experience by training with him anyway, and the next best thing is to buy his instructionals. I am a poor interpreter. With that said I am a firm believer in sharing everything with everyone and promoting BJJ. Marcelo is the best example of someone who never hides anything. baileboy, Thanks. I love everything Stephan Kesting does and have all of his tapes.
4/18/08 1:22 PM
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LeoKirby
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With that said Tatiana just sent me a clip she filmed Wed. night at class.

 

 Pay no attention to Marcelo toying with that real old guy:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVIHXu8gegg&feature=email 

4/18/08 2:11 PM
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robhustle
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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TrainJiuJitsu.com, President
Thanks for the info leo!
4/18/08 2:41 PM
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vegard
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mt
4/18/08 4:08 PM
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kying418
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TTT! Awesome!
4/18/08 5:21 PM
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flowmaster
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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nice i need to get a private from him im sure its worth it
4/18/08 6:49 PM
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groundfighter2000
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I think we need a "LeoGround" for all these nuggest of knowledge
4/18/08 7:53 PM
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LeoKirby
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Edited: Apr 18 2008 12:00A
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noooo... a Marceloground maybe. Maybe we will have a Camp Marcelo down here though when it gets cold again for anyone wanting to train with him for a week who doesn't live here. Marcelo class a couple of times a day and the beach in between would be cool.
4/18/08 7:56 PM
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pats0
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Marcelo/Leo Ground would be amazing. Also, for those of you that are unaware, Leo has a bunch of great videos on his crackle account here: http://crackle.com/members/2036304 as well as some descriptions of the videos here: http://www.combatsport.co.uk/Leos%20Page.html

I hope you don't mind me posting this.
4/18/08 11:37 PM
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kying418
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I want a Leo ground too. Until someone can convince Marcelo to drop by (which is unlikely), Leo's the next best thing to learning Marcelo jiu jitsu.
4/19/08 12:16 AM
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LeoKirby
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Edited: Apr 19 2008 12:00A
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Pats0, I don't mind you posting them. Just keep in mind I have only filmed things when someone asked me to do something. And I always remind people they are much better going to the source, these are just my interpretations of things from other people and also why I always try to give other people credit. That is also why I have never posted any links on the UG. I always look at it like there are many people out there much better than I am, just go out and find them. But thanks for the good words guys.

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