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Weapons UnderGround >> 1911 carry


4/30/08 12:22 PM
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TylerJamesMead
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Edited: Apr 30 2008 12:00A
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if i was to cary a s/a 1911 in an inside the waistband holster with no retention strao sholt it be carried ready to fire, safety on, no round in camber?
5/1/08 10:54 AM
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LittleJoeMama
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Edited: May 1 2008 12:00A
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Cocked and locked is the proper way to carry a 1911.
5/1/08 8:53 PM
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ViewType
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Safeties are for people who want to die in an attack. That sucker should be right below your navel for easy concealment and draw, a round should be chambered, the hammer should be cocked, the safety should be off, and you should never, NEVER have the retention strap done up.
5/2/08 9:18 AM
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Willybone
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^ Being a man about it ^
5/9/08 12:36 AM
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Calbert
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My firearms instructor carries his 1911 cocked with a round in the chamber but with the safety on. If you practice repetition and proper drilling under stress, I don't think you will have a problem disengaging the safety in reality.
5/9/08 11:30 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Edited: 05/09/08 11:31 AM
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S&W 38/357 airweight revolver internal hammer carry it in your pocket. Point and shoot :)
5/10/08 2:07 PM
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xsjadoroll
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I just picked up a kimber pro carry II, carry inside the pants (desantis custom holster for 1911) cocked and locked.

Personally I dont see the time in such a situation to chamber a round.
5/11/08 12:08 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Joe: That's gonna be my CCW pistol. The S&W CIA in 357. You just point and shoot, fire through the jacket pocket if needed
5/12/08 3:29 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Kai. You got it Bro that's the way to go. Less moving parts less problems. Good choice. :)
5/12/08 12:30 PM
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Willybone
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S&W 38/357 airweight
I've got a S&W .38 and I'm considering taking it to a smith to have the hammer bobbed. DA is the realistic use of a CCW revolver, and it's hard to develop draw that's unfailingly snag-free with the current hammer.
5/12/08 12:46 PM
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Joe Maffei
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Good idea

I use the J frame 442 with +P, it works for me.
7/23/08 2:21 PM
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FlashGordon2002
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Israelis generally carry semi-autos in condition three and are trained to draw, rack and fire.
7/26/08 2:03 PM
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T0ki
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FlashGordon2002 - Israelis generally carry semi-autos in condition three and are trained to draw, rack and fire.


But they also practice the "Israeli Draw" incessantly. In a close retention situation, this is a liability as it takes two hands to do this. In an "intimate" situation, you're trained to use your non-gun hand to make space or defend your gun side...

I carry condition 1 and practice incorporating a thumb sweep with every holster draw. Sometimes it is not real (I simply move my thumb across the safety without engaging it), but the movement is always part of my draw.

Viewtype, the only reason I disagree with you is for the half-second (or more) that safety may buy me if some bad guy gets hold of my pistol before I can get a shot off...

And other reasons involving the 2nd half of a gunfight...the courts.
8/10/08 8:13 PM
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moonrunrs
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I have a 1911 and also studied the israeli system. It really works if you practice, but so does disengaging the safety under stress if you practice. I have a larger safety on my .45, so I'm used to disengaging the safety so much it's 2nd nature.

The israeli system rocks for shooting under stress, the stance, reloads and all the other stuff. The draw is good but it requires space and your free hand.
8/23/08 2:07 PM
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HarryLime
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Edited: 08/23/08 2:15 PM
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I've enjoyed renting 1911 pistols, but my knowledge of the platform is limited.

I've always wondered, why the grip safety is not considered sufficient by itself?

I love my HK P-7 because the squeeze cocking panel on the front of the frame allows for such safe and fast handling.

I realize the grip safety on 1911s does not cock the pistol like like the p-7, but it still can not be fired unless you have a fighting grip on the gun.

Is the grip safety known to fail? Has anyone ever advocated carrying a 1911 Condition 0 besides flipino gangsters?

I know this sounds really dangerous, but in practice . . . how much more dangerous would this be than carrying a glock?
8/24/08 9:15 AM
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Skpotamus
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I was always curious how much the Israelis really did with their pistols for their uber special technique to get such high praise. I mean, we're talking about their army, I'm pretty sure they carry rifles for fighting and only use thier pistols when they're completely boned.

As for civilians carrying that way, well, soldiers carrying assault rifles and traveling in groups carry their gun one way, they might have time to actually draw, rack and fire their handgun while getting covering fire from their buddies. I seriously doubt a normal person, or even a police officer would have the time to draw and rack their slide when under assault. See videos of real gunfights and assaults. If someone is attacking you odds are you're going to have one arm on the other person trying to stop them from shooting or stabbing you and the other hand on your gun. Which makes it pretty hard to rack the slide reliably.

A long time ago I wrote a thread on here about my buddy who carried his glock with an empty chamber. he was convinced that was the way to go. I did a little force on force with him. We made sure his gun was empty, with no ammo in the room. His goal was simply to get his gun out of the holster and get the slide locked back. Starting as far as 10 paces away, he couldn't get his gun racked before I tackled him or "cut" him with a training knife. When we tried it with more realistic scenario's, such as me walking up on him and pulling a knife, or starting from conversation distances, he never got his slide racked open, and rarely even got his gun out of the holster until he started trying to use some combatives first. Even then, he still couldn't get the slide racked.

An empty gun is essentially a really crappy club.

Carry your 1911 cocked and locked, practice a lot, and do some force on force training.
8/25/08 4:32 AM
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moonrunrs
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Part of the israeli training is to deal with those type of scenarios. I use cocked and locked but trained the israeli way too. The israeli way can work if you practice against opponents who are attacking you at close range, etc. The free hand clears obstacles or other people before you shoot.

My instructor was incredibly fast and could draw and shoot from weird positions, while he was moving and even jumping, sitting in a car, behind a desk.
8/27/08 8:25 PM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 08/28/08 5:07 AM
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moonrunr, how are you chambering your gun if you're using your free hand to clear obstacles or other people? I've never seen a reliable way in FoF training.

Not baiting or flaming, seriously asking.
8/31/08 11:47 PM
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moonrunrs
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Edited: 09/01/08 2:26 PM
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sure, didn't take it as a flame. In Israeli combat they carry strong side at the waist (either inside or out of waistband). When drawing, you drop to a modified karate style horse stance. Hand goes to gun, free hand comes up to your chest. The free hand clears any obstacles, other people and creates space for you to draw your gun. You don't draw until you have this space, lest the enemy grab your gun and disarm you, etc. You, of course, can also use footwork to move yourself into a position for safe draw. You draw gun and bring it up to your chest where it meets the free hand. Free hand grabs slide and gun hand pushes forward, so you rack the slide -- like throwing a punch. After round is chambered, use basic isocoles (sp?) triangle grip and instinctive shooting. Part of clearing the obstacles in training drills involves pushing, pulling, grabbing people and objects that are in your way, stiff armiing someone who is charging you, etc. Backpedaling to draw or get to cover. Once We used a timer to see how fast some people could draw and fire, and most of us could do it in 1 second. It takes practice (I was racking my slide so much the fingers on my free hand started getting blistered and raw that day) but it is possible.
10/7/08 3:33 AM
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sreiter
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moon

was that you on "the unit" ?
10/7/08 3:37 AM
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sreiter
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ViewType - Safeties are for people who want to die in an attack. That sucker should be right below your navel for easy concealment and draw, a round should be chambered, the hammer should be cocked, the safety should be off, and you should never, NEVER have the retention strap done up.


wow you couldnt be more wrong if you tried

i hope you shoot your cock off

safety always on - carry on strong side hip

if you're nor LEO then no strap - if LEO practice releasing the strap at the same time you you grab gun
10/7/08 3:46 AM
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sreiter
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people

go to gun site

you disengage the safety as soon as you clear leather and point the weapon down range, before you bring the weapon up to your chest

if you had to, you could index fire from the hip
10/7/08 3:52 AM
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sreiter
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10/7/08 4:01 AM
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sreiter
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.33 in
10/7/08 2:01 PM
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ViewType
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sreiter - wow you couldnt be more wrong if you tried

i hope you shoot your cock off
Congratulations. You have proven to the world you have no sense of humor and no understanding of sarcasm. I mean, really, I did try to be as wrong as possible; didn't that tip you off? Obviously not.

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