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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> THE DANGERS OF S&C


3/7/02 8:32 AM
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tmorenz
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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Don't get me wrong. I enjoy lifting. But I let myself get too distracted from the main directive. When I started lifting again 10 months ago, I started with a basic routine, got seduced by the lure of "fake" muscle and started towards split routines, yadayadayada. When a brilliant s&c coach (I forget his name, I think his nickname rhymes with "Splickenhawk")told me. "TIM! DO YOU WANT TO BE A LIFTER OR A FIGHTER!?!?!" I said that I wanted to be a fighter and my routines and performance has never been the same. It doesn't make any sense to be training s&c for 90 minutes of low intensity work, when street conflicts (what I train for) last 89 minutes and 50 seconds less. My nervous system ends up saying, "Tim!?!? WTF!?!" and my skill work ends up suffering because I'm overfatigued from s&c activities which were supposed to enhance my abilities, not screw it up. Sorry for the overkill. t.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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THE DANGERS OF STRENGTH&CONDITIONING!! WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK IS THERE ANY?? PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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For one they may take you off on a tangent , in terms of NOT replicating that activity which you desire the S&C for in the FIRST place !! You can do all sorts of exercises , but in the end if they don't directly contribute to your goal , then they were a waste of time . IOW : Train for your event , by replicating that event . Only then will your S&C truly come thru for you ... 'out of the hole' . Also Phil Hughes wrote a great article that sheds light on this . To VERY crudely paraphrase .. Not much good being able to run effortlessly for 60 mins , if you are winded 60 secs. into a fight !
V.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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tmorenz
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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I think the biggest danger is approaching strength and conditioning like a "lifter" instead of like "fighter." T.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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OK!!! BROTHER TIM!! COULD YOU ELABORATE A LITTLE!!! :-) PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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TIM, YOU DIDN'T F&*K ANYTHING UP!!..I'M NOT EXACTLY THE SHARPEST TOOL IN THE SHED!! :-) YES IT IS!!!.. THEY ARE TWO INTIRELY DIFFERENT COMPONENTS OF A GOOD PROGRAM AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH!! MIXING THEM MAY GET YOU RESULTS!! BUT, NOT AS GOOD AS KEEPING THEM SEPARATE!! NECKCRANKU...YES A VIDEO IS IN THE WORKS AND WILL BE OUT NEXT MONTH!!..CHECK HERE FOR INFO!!!.. THIS IS THE PLACE!!.. :-) ALSO I HAVE A WEB PAGE IN THE WORKS!! (WWW.STRENGTHisCONDITIONING.COM) ALL MY IDEAS WILL BE THERE!! (BOTH OF THEM!) :-) PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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THANKS LEE!!.. NICE POST!! VARLEY OR ANYONE ELSE!! GIVE ME YOUR IDEAS FIRST!! REAL KNOWLEDGE IS SELF KNOWLEDGE!! :-) PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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Ok Tom , Here it goes . The mind moves the body . So with a solid S&C program .. ie : event specific , time-line sensitive , etc , the body will respond well . HOWEVER , wouldn't the mind fall under the 'C' in S&C ? This is where I'm interested . I think to make full use of our physical , we must push ourselves beyond our perceived limits again , and again . And a good place for this might be when we are at our most tired , dejected , gassed moments . This may be in the midst of a replication drill or an emotional climate drill . But am I correct in feeling that when we are in this 'state' and are pushed into the edge of our holy $%^& zone , that we can learn a great deal about ourselves . And in doing so , 'condition' ourselves to the point where our event will seem a challenge , but NOT overwhelming on any level at all ?? V.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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TIM, I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE ASKING ME?? NECKCRANKU, I'M HERE FIRE AWAY WITH QUESTIONS!!! VARLEY, YOU CAN'T TRAIN THE SKILL OF FIGHTING FRESH AND THE SKILL OF FIGHTING TIRED EFFICIENTLY IN THE SAME WORK OUT THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT SKILLS!! PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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tmorenz
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Is trying to integrate skill work into s&c a mistake or a "danger of s&c"? And I was trying to be as slick and socratic as you, but I guess I f$$$ed it up. But what I was trying to ask was, in order for one to avoid other pitfalls of s&c, one must have the proper knowledge and must also concentrate? Waiting with baited breath, T.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Lee A
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There is no substitute for targeted preparation for a specific event, as Tom has eloquently pointed out. When looking at S & C in a global manner, there are a few benefits which every trainee can obtain universally. First, there is injury prevention. Not only more "strength", but the bone density which weight- bearing work provides. Second, cardiorespiratory protection is a typically quoted goal of "cardio" training. Most people overdo their "cardio", since acquiring the increased O2 transfer, better pulmonary circulation, and improved cardiac hemodynamic function all take less work than usually done. The Graded Exercise Protocol (GXP) has been shown to provide all the necessary health benefits in a 10 (ten) minute session when properly performed. Additional "cardio" only limits available energy stores and reduces the chance of effective event-oriented training. Only if one is involved in an endurance sport (marathon, etc.) should large amounts of time and energy be spent here. Third, body composition and lean muscle mass contribute immensely to quality of life as one ages. Being able to perform difficult tasks for years and years enhances one's psychological health as well as the physical aspect. If one's primary concern is training for a REAL fight, then Tom is right on the money, IMO. There is no subsitute for producing an adrenalized state, introducing extreme challenge, and honing performance. The expenditure of energy when frightened, "challenged", etc. is far more than that which typically occurs with the same task while "relaxed". This is one of the "hidden secrets" of training which Tom has done such a good job of sharing with everyone. For example, I always say that the police train shooting in the dark, sirens wailing, lights flashing, etc. to introduce the event- specific stress mix which is often present during their performance of this task. Tony's Panic Attack and emotional climate message provide this element for CQB trainees. In summary, training can provide "universal" benefits to anyone. The improvment of health, etc. is a worthwhile goal. Improvement for fighting is a specific goal, and specific means must be employed so as not to misdirect one's training energies. Too many trainees are infected with the "comic-book super-hero" image, which has them believe that they can be super strong, run 100 miles without tiring, and have impeccable fighting abilities, etc. For us real-life guys, directed training gives us the greatest bang-for-the-buck. Thanks, Tom Lee Aldridge
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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Ok Tom , I misinterpreted your post on 30-Aug-01 , 06:20 AM . I was thinking they were trained in the same workout . Hmmm , could you please elaborate on each ? Geeze , you've got us all waiting with baited breath now ! This is a great way to learn ; by pondering questions . Keep 'em coming Tom !! V.
3/7/02 12:00 AM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
:-) T
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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tmorenz
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So, mixing skill work into s&c is a danger, and so is a lack of concentration and lack of knowledge? Is build strength first, then apply the skill? To create a connection between type of strength and type of skill? Great stuff, T.C.! T.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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TIM, THE TWO GUY'S IN THE GYM SUFFER FROM LACK OF CONCENTRATION OR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE!!! JIMMY23, YOUR EXAMPLE IS MORE OF WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT!! YOU NEEDED TO TAKE UP JOGGING TO GET GOOD AT CLASS!!!.. CLASS IS NOT THE EVENT!! HOW LONG IS YOUR CLASS?? HOW LONG IS YOUR EVENT?? ARE YOU MAKING THE MISTAKE OF MIXING S&C WITH SKILL TRAINING?? ARE YOU PRACTICING FIGHTING FRESH AND FIGHTING TIRED IN THE SAME WORKOUT?? VARLEY, NOT QUITE WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT BUT GOOD POINTS AND GOOD TRAINING!! ALSO "REPLICATION DRILLS" IS TONY'S NOT MINE!!!! ZEKE MY BRO. YOU MISSED THAT ONE!! :-) PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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tmorenz
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Whoa! pondering, pondering, pondering. Does this have to do with the fact that people ignore skill as a crucial and essential ingredient into their s&c program? What about intensity? I see lots of people at the gym talking during training and reading on the treadmill or bike!?! WTF!?! I was there tonight and my workout took 9 minutes and 18 seconds. I was totally soaked with sweat. After a shower, I left and there were 2 guys still doing the same exercise (one talking to the other while doing the lift) when I came in (Total time on one exercise=30-40 minutes!?!?!) Are those dangers: ignoring skill and ingnoring intensity? t.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Jimmy23
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"HERES ONE TO PONDER!!..MANY PEOPLE SET UP THEIR S&C TO GET GOOD AT THE TRAINING FOR THEIR EVENT!!!.. BUT NOT THE EVENT ITSELF" Now thats a thought provoker! However, in some cases, this may be neccessary. Let me explain. After a long layoff I have become active again in MMA. The problem I faced though, was that I gassed way too early in class to train my skills like i wanted too. To alleviate, I took up jogging. Now, I doubt that jogging has much of a carryover effect to a real fight , or even an MMA match. BUt, the overall conditioning gained helped me extend my training time signifigantly.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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"HERES ONE TO PONDER!!..MANY PEOPLE SET UP THEIR S&C TO GET GOOD AT THE TRAINING FOR THEIR EVENT!!!.. BUT NOT THE EVENT ITSELF!!! " Heres where the 'Trilogy' comes into play again Tom . Successful S&C MUST incorporate all three aspects . It's fine to do push-ups for instance , but imagine yourself S.P.E.A.R.ing some huge guy each time you push upwards . Or when you run , add an emotional/psychological context-intensity ; for instance imagine you're running for your life , or running after a car that just scooped up your little niece etc !! You must try and illicit the emotional and psychological [feelings?] that you will actually encounter in the midst of your 'event' , while doing your S&C training . In doing so , you will truly be training for the event and all it will entail , rather than merely the one dimentionality of the physical ! TOM : Would the epitome of this approach to training be Tony's Panic Attacks™ and your Replication Drills ??
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Maurice Dumas
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Tom, S&C should be holistic as well as goal specific, right? By holistic I mean, your training should include drills that will prevent injury as well as fine-tune technique. Weight training for example may not be that good for neuro(sp?) muscular behavior but it sure prevents you from pulling or tearing when you smack the crap out of the bad guys. Exercises that tie all your movements together like barbell Clean and Press or a rope climb up a steep rock with a tractor tire over your shoulder are very helpful for injury prevention, Oh! Not to mention Fun! Am I on base here? XXOO Maurice
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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NICE JOB TIM!! SO WE CAN SAY THAT ONE OF THE DANGERS IS THAT IF THE TIME-LINE OF YOUR S&C DOSEN'T MATCH THE TIME-LINE OF YOUR EVENT THAN YOU MAY BE WASTING YOUR TIME!! :-) WE CAN ALSO SAY THAT THE S&C OF BODYBUILDERS AND POWER LIFTERS IS SPECIFIC TO THEIR SPORT AND NOT FIGHTING!! HERES ONE TO PONDER!!..MANY PEOPLE SET UP THEIR S&C TO GET GOOD AT THE TRAINING FOR THEIR EVENT!!!.. BUT NOT THE EVENT ITSELF!!! YOUR THOUGHTS? PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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tmorenz
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OK! Now that that's taken care of! I have a question for Tom that was a discussion that Phil and I had over the phone this morning. How important is heart rate as a component of training? How does one go about integrating it into a training program? T. BTW, Tom, you have mail. T.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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Tony , Great points . I guess I do eventually respond to bluntness ! I understand now that as a beginner , though quite interested , I have no license to post here as though I had 'emotionally earned' the right . As I'm still interested , and lucky enough to have a really good teacher , I will continue evolving here . But I'll use this much needed break to step way back , regauge where I am at , and begin using this forum as my daily muse , rather then somewhere to hash out my [not fully developed] understandings of your material . I should apologize , as a TCMS student , that I had to be bludgeoned with bluntness before I finally understood such a simple message ! Thanx , yet again , Tony for being an educator . V.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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DAMN ZEKE!! NOW THEY KNOW I'M A MASS-HOLE!!! THEY WILL NEVER LISTEN TO ME NOW!!! :-) PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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tmorenz
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Tom, you just gave the best explanation of heartrate training that I have ever heard!! T.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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JIMMY23!!!..NICE WORK!! THAT IS WHAT I WAS HOPING YOU WOULD REALIZE!! REMEMBER THIS SIMPLE POINT "IF IT FATIGUES YOU IT IS NOT PROPER SKILL WORK!!" :-) TIM THE STUD!! ETCH THIS IN STONE!! "YOU CAN NOT DO TO MUCH SKILL WORK!!!.. IF IT IS PROPER SKILL WORK!!" :-) SO THE TIME LINE OF YOUR EVENT DOSEN'T APPLY TO PROPER SKILL WORK!! P... SWEET!! YOU NAILED IT!!..THANKS DUDE!! ZEKE MY BROTHER!!..NICE COUNTER POST!! MAURICE IS ONE OF MINE!!...DO YOU SEE WHAT HE DID!! I SAID HE WAS WRONG!!..AND HE DIDN'T POUT AND CRY HE ROLLED WITH THE SHOT AND CAME BACK SWINGING!! :-) PEACE, TOM

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