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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> THE DANGERS OF S&C

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3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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TIM, I FIND THAT THE BEST WAY TO INTERGRATE YOUR HREATRATE INTO A PROGRAM IS TO KEEP THE HEART BEATING!! :-) YOUR HEART RATE IS THE ONLY ACCURATE WAY BY WHICH YOU CAN TELL HOW HARD YOU ARE WORKING!!!.. ALL ELSE IS GUESS WORK!! PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Maurice Dumas
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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M.E. People, Ponder this………… Tom refers to me as one of his own. He lives in Massachusetts, I live in Hawaii. Peace.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Maurice Dumas
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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Big Brother, Let me try again, Don’t train the muscle with the technique, train the technique as it would be used, goal specific. Strength drills (what ever they may be) are to be applied as resistance to develop stronger body mechanics and prevent injury. The conditioning factor can be applied to both the strength training and technique development. Conditioning is applied with goals in mind but enhanced with increases in strength. So, although different (S&C) are combined unilaterally. Techniques however should be executed from a “relaxed” physical state right? Can the technique drills be integrated into your training in a way that does not compromise “form”? And, how does speed work fit in? I miss those smelly gloves Bro, Maurice
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
"THE WONDERFUL THING ABOUT BLUNTENSS IS THAT IT GAUGES THE STRONG AND INTIMIDATES THE WEAK: -title from an article on my site. A ton of great info here... UNfortunately there is a tension running through the thread that tarnishes some of the insight...though there's always something to learn during any conflict. Varley, you wirte with a certitude that in this format comes across as 'all knowing'. Perhaps that is simply the unfortunate blend of email [no tone/no timbre/no 3D connection & the written word colored by the reader], perhaps it is not. CONCEPT: If the thread 'leader' is socratically trying to bring about an insight and choose a particular path, it is for 'you' the reader to follow and if hints of 'going off track' are made, it is not for you to question abrasively but to get challenged and ponder where you went off track. FUrther, the frequency and tone of some your posts is bothersome. In many of your posts, rather than just asking why or please explain, you confuse your question within a riot of BLAUER TCMS verbiage.... As Tom and many others are so familiar with my research it is likely a turn off as the info is not coming from your heart but from your head. This has two direct effects: 1. It turns off the knowledgable reader who doesnt really see this as an exchange but really and comparison. 2. It turns off the major sources of info [people]because there is a game being played [conscious or not] so they leave the thread. If you have another important question, then why not write it down and post it another time? WHy force it here & now with edge and challenge? I mentioned frequency...if one didnt know better, one might thinnk you were in charge of the Mental Edge when Im on the road. :-) This is a place to learn and interact. FYI, there are real warriors who come to this forum read it daily and have never ever poste..they use this forum as their USA Today or morning news for their tactical mind-set musings....youve been studying my material for a few months and reading my material voraciously and you write about it as though you 'emoitonally' have earned the right to write as you do. Im not so sure thats realistic on your part. Have you had other misunderstandings of this nature in other areas of your life or this forum? If so you may want to take a thrice recommended pause and ruminate some. Tony
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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LET ME START WITH THIS AND THIS GOES OUT TO EVERYONE!! I AM NOT A FUC*ING CHEERLEADER!!! I'M NOT HERE TO ENCOURAGE I AM HERE TO EDUCATE!!! SOMETIME THE TWO ARE BROTHER AND SISTER!! SOMETIME SWORN ENEMY'S!!! SOME LESSONS CAN BE AS SWEET AS HONEY SOME AS BITTER AS BILE!! ASK A DIRECT QUESTION AND GET A DIRECT ANSWER!! AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT I SAY!!.. TOUGH SHI$ GROW UP, EXCEPT IT, AND MOVE FORWARD!!!.. ALWAYS MOVE FORWARD!! PEACE, TOM P.S. I'LL BE BACK LATER TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS FROM LAST NIGHT!!
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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tmorenz
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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Varley, Don't try so hard! The first time I did the CQF, Tony thought I was going to blow all of the blood vessels in my forehead, because I was muscling the drill. Tom is engaging your emotions with blunt truth, just think about what he is asking, because he is just reflecting your ideas. T.C., Awesome thread! I'm learning a ton! Does the time line principle apply to skill as well as s&c? Tim
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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P
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I know this is a thread based on 'questions' but I wanted to share an 'experience' I had with my trainer, Tom Campbell, that forced a 'realization'. I had been working on developing a good shin kick for a long time (still fine tuning it!) but could never seem to 'consistenly' deliver it with effortless power, the way Coach Blauer does. During a workout in Tom's 'Pit' I shared this with him and using a couple of simple drills Tom helped me discover MY perfect/effortless shin kick (all in 12 minutes!). I was ECSTATIC! I just wanted to kick the bag all night...BUT, Tom stopped me and explained something CRUCIAL to this subject: "The body is a survival mechanism. Right now it's not sure if what you are doing to it is good or bad. If you push it to fatigue in this skill it will CHANGE what you are doing to PROTECT ITSELF!" ...Major lightbulb moment!! I looked at myself and discovered that in my eagerness to get better I had often sabotaged my own progress! I was trying to 'condition' my body into a new skill and all I was developing was sloppier skill as my body rejected my efforts in...SELF DEFENSE! I will NEVER look at training the same way. P. ps- Varley, bluntly, you're getting obnoxious. Your posts ramble and, I'll be honest, I've taken to skipping past them. Tom is very direct and extremely knowledgeable in this area, and combat in general. You want an answer? Ask a DIRECT question and then SHUT UP AND LISTEN!!! If you want to pout, do it SOMEWHERE ELSE!!! This is NOT the place. Tom is graciously providing hard won knowledge for FREE! Use it or don't, but don't play wordsmith and pout when you're not the center of attention... In the words of Tony Blauer, "STEP AWAY FROM THE FRIGGIN' COMPUTER AND GO HIT A BAG!!!"
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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Because I was trying to learn , and am not in agreement with TC's methods , I am pouting ?? Well I gave it a shot here , and obviously am not getting the message . You can ease up on the lecture as well . What you refer to as 'wordsmith' was just a TCMS student trying to participate in a question and answer with Tom . It was not my intention to ramble ... And as far as asking direct questions and shutting up ??? Well Tom asked to hear my ideas , and only then would he comment . It started as a Socratic give and take ... and as usual I stepped in a pile of shit ; or rather was obnoxious ??? WAY too close , don't get it ... gone to hit the bag . Phil , good luck in your next fight , eh ? Later , V.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THAT YOU ARE USING THE PHYSICAL!!! (AS IN BEING TIRED!) TO DEVELOP CONFIDENCE IN YOUR GIVEN TASK? DON'T YOU THINK THAT IS ONE DIMENSIONAL?? PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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Physically tired yes , but I am also accounting for being drained mentally and emotionally as well . And having to push on . I agree I am being unclear , I am trying to push all three aspects , to tire all of them and then try and move past they're perceived barriers . In this light Tom , I think it's 3-dimentional . For ex : If my partner has me mounted and starts pounding on me , and injects true emotional intensity , my emotional and psychological arsenals may crumble unless they are equipped to endure . . . Endurance which is 'conditioned' into us . You are quite right I see in suggesting that I am using the physical as a catalyst . I do , however recognize that first , we are attacked emotionally . But personally , without the physical , I suspect it might be hard to replicate realistic emotional attacks alone . I'm not confident the partners perception of the attack would be on par with a real attack . V.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Jimmy23
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"HOW LONG IS YOUR CLASS?? HOW LONG IS YOUR EVENT?? ARE YOU MAKING THE MISTAKE OF MIXING S&C WITH SKILL TRAINING?? ARE YOU PRACTICING FIGHTING FRESH AND FIGHTING TIRED IN THE SAME WORKOUT?? " Class may be from 2 to 4 hours, depends on how much fun were having :) In class, the onlly S& C we do is at the end of class, if then. The idea is that conditioning should be done on your own your own time, class time is for skills and sparring. We do fight fresh, and tired. Oftentimes we do some sort of combat (muay thai, boxing , or submissions) at the beginning of class, split up and do skill work, and end the class with more sparring. While I dont fight (due to my job, getting the time off is impossible now) , there are several pros that work out of my gym. Their training goals are different than mine. They are there to get ready for competition. Im there to keep my self sharp, and to develop my abilities. One of my main goals is to keep my confidence level high, and , for me, I cannot do this without contact and striving against people who challenge me. Some of the best training I get is from our biggest guy, hes a brute, 6'6, 300 pounds, and in shape. When i first got active again I feared this guy, so I made it a point to partner up with him everytime I could. This does me a lot of good mentally, as huge guys have always kind of scared me. Im not sure Im answering correctly here....
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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JUMMY23 YOUR COOL!! JUST KNOW WHAT YOUR GOALS ARE!!! MATCH YOUR S&C TO YOUR GOALS!!..(STREET OR SPORT!!) YOU DON'T HAVE CONTROL OF THE CLASS SO YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THE SKILL TRAINING!! DO THE BEST YOU CAN!! :-) VARLEY!!...AT THIS POINT YOU ARE JUST BABBLING!! PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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-----"BABBLING"------ Nicely put Tom .... truly amazing !! I guess that is your idea of encouragement ??????? unreal I can appreciate if my thinking isn't in perfect syncronicity with your's , but in the spirit of trying fairly hard to understand what you're driving at , do you think you could cut me a little slack Tom ? I'd respond to that type of facilitation far quicker . Socratic method doesn't really include discouragement and insults , does it ? I could understand if I was being a wiseass or simply trying to waste your time , but hell I thought I was making a few valid points .... and whether you think ( or care ) so , or not , I WAS trying to follow the lesson along ; that is until 'BABBLING' was thrust in my face ! V. BTW , I fired an email your way earlier in the evening ; expressing my appreciation for your help in understanding this stuff , and acknowledging you were doing so , even though you must be a busy guy . I'm still apreciative Tom , I'm just not sure I'm responding to your methods . And unfortunately I don't know you well enough to know how to interpret your words ; for all I know you're simply being blunt , and thats your way of trying to provoke more thoughts on my part .
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Jimmy23
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Tom, I will make a greater effort to seperate the two. I realized tonight , after posting, that often in my skill training I try to make the technicques too hard- i try to condition when I should be working skill. Thanks for the input, it made me aware of something I hadnt noticed before.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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SO VARLEY, AM I SAFE TO SAY THAT YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THE TRAINING OF FIGHTING WHEN TIRED?? PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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Absolutely Tom ! It fascinates the hell outta me ; because , for one , it meshes the entire trilogy together . V.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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WHAT TRILOGY DO YOU SPEAK OF AND WHY DO YOU THINK IT MESHES THEM TOGETHER?? PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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Tom , I am speaking of the :
  • Emotional ,
  • Psychological , &
  • Physical .
As I said , I think they are meshed together because they are intimately related or reliant upon each other . For instance if we look at the latter portion of an emotional climate drill ... We are no longer 'fresh' , so as I see it our confidence etc might waiver . Our physical can carry us only so far , until we must turn to the other 2/3's of the trilogy to move us forward . By keeping the physical , emotional and psychological intensity high we force ourselves to bridge from one leg of the trilogy to the other ... each third reinforcing the others , so that we are able to push further than ever before . And as Tony would say , 'If we can't think to do it in training , what makes us think we could do it in a fight' . We must 'think' in training that we can do more , endure more , push further , resist pain , retain confidence etc . S&C training must push us to our limits in a constructive way , so we gain the benefit of complete , exponential growth ! V.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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OPPS...Should that be 'Trinity' ??? I think I may have confused those two words .. I meant trinity ... as in a group of 3 . Sorry bout that ! V.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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Well I considered what you said . And based on the idea of separating the two , I focused my question / idea on the 'tired' half . Did my idea hold any merit Tom ? Is it not useful to train the physical to the extent that we perceive it is gassed , thereby shifting focus to the conditioning of the mind ; thereby increasing our ability to push further , and further in our abilities / limits . Or by S&C'ing do you wish to focus on the physical ? V.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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VARLEY,.. YOUR POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QUESTION YOU ASKED ME????? YOUR QUESTION WAS ABOUT TRAINING TIRED AND FRESH IN THE SAME WORK OUT!!..OR DID I MISS SOMETHING??? PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Varley
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Great thought provoking thread Tom !! Also , I am very interested in understanding how we can 'train fresh and tired' in the same workout efficiently . By training tired Tom , do you mean ,(amongst other things), training to the point where our inner voice tries doing it's best to undermine us .. screams for reprieve ?? (lungs on fire , muscles juiced , discouraged etc ). Pondering ... Would it follow that as these varied symptoms increased in intensity , that we will be drawn out of our comfort zones quicker , and into our discomfort zone and our holy ^&*! zone ? So by innoculating ourselves against them , our comfort zone grows , right ? And so our survival expectancy spikes upwards too . V.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Tom Campbell
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ZEKE,... THATS THE BEAUTY OF THE INTERNET!! I CAN TRAIN YOU A HALF A WORLD AWAY!!! TIM!! THANKS!! SORRY IT TOOK ME 23 WORDS I'LL TRY TO CUT IT DOWN NEXT TIME!! NECKCRANKU, WE MUST STICK TOGETHER!! :-) PEACE, TOM
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Jimmy23
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excellent thread, man thanks!
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Lee A
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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Agreed, Tom. The tougher part of being a coach/trainer (as I'm sure Tony has imparted to you) is to inspire the trainee to dig deeper into themselves to discover much more than they learn by "doing another round". You have challenged readers to actually think about what we do, not just do it. I appreciate the time and effort you give to advancing the psychology of training, not just the physical "directives". It's a pleasure to read your thoughts, and I look forward to much more! Lee Aldridge

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