UnderGround Forums
 

UnderGround Forums >> define "intelligently defending yourself"


6/9/08 7:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
DW
161 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3489
 

Attention Dana White and NSAC 

this seems to be the gray area that most people end up arguing about when it comes to the early stoppages.  I personally think that not "intelligently" defending yourself means that you are not doing what needs to be done to prevent serious harm to yourself, and that is when a ref is supposed to stop the fight to keep the sport safe for participants who may not be in the best frame of mind to decide for themselves, or who may be too proud to concede defeat. 

 

The important part of my definition are the words "serious harm" which to me means being knocked out,  concussed, or having a bone or joint in danger of being damaged to the point of needing immediate medical attention.  Now we all know that the ref has to make the split-second decisions and in the heat of the moment that can be tough, but since this sport is still quite young, we need to work out these things.  In my humble opinion, Brandon Vera was not in danger of "serious harm" at all while he was mounted by Fabricio Werdum.  Werdum was throwing punches from a dominant postion, but to anyone watching, it was obvious most punches werent getting through, and the ones that were had very little force.  An informed and experienced ref should see that Vera was in no immediate danger of being sent to the hospital or knocked out by any of the blows Werdum threw.  That may had changed in the last 15 seconds of the round, and we would have expected Dan M. to call the fight if it did, but the way it went was unfair to Vera and a bad call overall.  Opinions?  Insults?

6/9/08 7:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
buvaiser
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/18/07
Posts: 4331
IMO there has to be some damage done. Or if it's only threat of damage.... why aren't fights stopped when you have marcelo garcia on your back for 5 minutes and all you do is tuck you chin while you are just trying to survive. there's the threat of getting choked out. it's the same as laying there and offering no effort to get out while dan severn rabbit punches you while riding your back like freddy mercury.
6/9/08 7:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
crowbar
821 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12935

 My opinion

Doing what needs to be done to prevent serious harm to yourself (which includes blocking punches)

6/9/08 7:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
DW
161 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3490

 thanks guys you both seem to be thinking along the same line as me.

6/9/08 8:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Scramslam
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/25/06
Posts: 1175
I agree. Sometimes when your mounted and taking shots the fight should be stopped, other times, the shots are not hard enought to warrant the stop eg. Vera fight
6/9/08 8:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BJ > DORKUS
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 30549

 Seriously, Vera could have given up his back and turtled so that he could stand up or whatever. But he didn't. Turning on your side while flattened out is not an intelligent defense. It's like Arlovski/Sylva II and can (and obviously was) interpreted as "there's nothing I can do, someone rescue me!"


6/9/08 9:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FingerorMoon
110 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/27/03
Posts: 2435
The problem is that a lot of the attacking tools on the ground have been taken away.

It narrows the options and makes it easy for a person to do nothing but defend.

And if you are going to do nothing but defend and cover up, you have made the decision you don't want to fight anymore.
6/9/08 9:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
2JupitersTooMany
1791 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/14/06
Posts: 6740
Asking a UG'er to define "intelligently defending yourself" is an oxy-moran
6/9/08 9:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Bill Pharoni
26 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/28/07
Posts: 2963
Yelling out "I'm fine" repeatedly.
6/9/08 9:38 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
bemsqua
58 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/09/08 9:40 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 522
Definitely a gray area...if a BJJ blackbelt has you mounted, you're not going to just buck him off or punch him from the bottom. Most of the time, when guys get in that position, they just start going crazy with punches to get the fight stopped. A lot of times, there's not a lot of damage being done...it just looks like there is. It's extremely intelligent to cover up and hope the guy wear's out for even a couple of seconds and try to buck again. The main point is a high level grappler isn't just going to be "thrown" off. To me, it's no different in stand up or boxing when a guy has someone hurt and just starts going crazy with punches. In those situations, a guys defense is to weather the storm and try to survive until they get their wits about them. It's no different on the ground. The way it is now, it's more a positional stoppage than anything else. Guys know this so they just throw flurries of punches hoping for a stoppage. Vera was weathering the storm. Sure, he was taking some punches, but he was in no way badly hurt. This is where MMA can take a lesson from boxing.
6/9/08 10:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Haulport
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/09/08 10:28 PM
Member Since: 2/28/07
Posts: 5674

Please see this thread of mine discussing this to death from a couple of months ago...

www.mixedmartialarts.com/

 

6/9/08 10:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kirik
1935 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 31269

The intelligent defense requirement comes into play when there is a significant element of danger. Mount is not dangerous if the fighter on top is too gassed to strike much or perhaps is inclined to grapple rather than strike from there. Where is there is danger, covering the head with both forearms does not by itself constitute intelligent defense. A two year old will cover their head if her Dora the Explorer dolls falls over.

Too you have to take into account the individuals in question. This sport is in the business of getting punched in the face, so if the occasional shot is getting through, that is not neccessarily danger. It is clear shots, most notably those that cause the head to bounce off the ground that are most significant.

There are a wide variety of intelligent defenses to strikes from Mount including bridging, shrimping, bodylocking, trapping the arms and or head, backdoor escaping, rolling and posting up, and moving the head. While covering the head is an integral part of various techniques, it does not by ieself constiture intelligent defense.

 

6/9/08 10:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
liquidrob
115 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/9/02
Posts: 1751
easy question

if the UG doesnt like a fighter (kimbo), you stop it

if the UG likes a fighter (Joe L, Vera), let them fight you stupid ref!
6/9/08 10:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Haulport
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/28/07
Posts: 5678
Kirik -

The intelligent defense requirement comes into play when there is a significant element of danger. Mount is not dangerous if the fighter on top is too gassed to strike much or perhaps is inclined to grapple rather than strike from there. Where is there is danger, covering the head with both forearms does not by itself constitute intelligent defense. A two year old will cover their head if her Dora the Explorer dolls falls over.


Too you have to take into account the individuals in question. This sport is in the business of getting punched in the face, so if the occasional shot is getting through, that is not neccessarily danger. It is clear shots, most notably those that cause the head to bounce off the ground that are most significant.


There are a wide variety of intelligent defenses to strikes from Mount including bridging, shrimping, bodylocking, trapping the arms and or head, backdoor escaping, rolling and posting up, and moving the head. While covering the head is an integral part of various techniques, it does not by ieself constiture intelligent defense.


I have a pretty basic question...why?
6/9/08 10:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RampageBySlamKO
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/24/07
Posts: 272
Intelligently defending yourself =


NOT FLAILING LIKE A LITTLE GIRL AND TURNING TO THE SIDE WHILE NOT EVEN COVERING UP PRAYING THAT THE MAGICAL RING FAIRY GETS WERDUM OFF OF HIM.

Luckily, the magical ring fairy did rescue him, but not in the way he wanted.
6/9/08 10:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
max power
6 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 43222

 BJM SAID JUST COVERING UP IS NOT CONSIDERED AN INTELLIGENT DEFENSE


6/9/08 10:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Haulport
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/28/07
Posts: 5679
Scorpi0nTrampStamp#1 -

why? because there are better defenses and ways out of the mounted position than chosing to just cover up.. had Vera attempted to sweep by either bridging or shrimping, or attemped to tie up Werdum's arms, there would have been more of an argument here...

If he's not getting hurt then why stop the fight?

Is this supposed to be like a pro-wrasslin' rope escape? I thought stopping fights was about safety...
6/9/08 10:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Haulport
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/28/07
Posts: 5680
max power -

BJM SAID JUST COVERING UP IS NOT CONSIDERED AN INTELLIGENT DEFENSE

Again.............why?
6/9/08 10:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MMA Playwrite
853 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/7/04
Posts: 3304

Olaf is not intelligently defending himself here, in my opinion:

<br/><a href="http://i25.tinypic.com/33l1ez4.jpg" target="_blank">View Raw Image</a>

6/9/08 11:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
liquidrob
115 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/9/02
Posts: 1753
who are you to say covering up is the best option at that point? its a fight, you're trying to survive

maybe they want to block the punches from hitting there face first?

so he didnt intelligently try and and stop punches, he dumbly tried to stop punches?

if no power shots are getting in, guess what? you are doing a good job and you oppenent is just gassing himself out with non accurates strikes

let these fighters take some real shots before you stop anything, if the GnP is weak, you get weak defense
6/9/08 11:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
AmidaHidan
186 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/23/07
Posts: 3166
I think of Not Intellegently defending as in you are dizzy or rocked or losing blood from a choke from a punch..

Not just the ref thinks you are not doing a great job blocking punches.

Thats why i think vera was a bullshit stop, when a abu dhabi
champion has you mounted the intellegent thing is to cover up and weather the storm.

He never seemed out or rocked. Bullshit call imo.

That said every fighter knows that if you "go fetal " the ref will probably stop it.
6/9/08 11:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
VectorWegaLives
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/7/08
Posts: 843
Haulport - 
If he's not getting hurt then why stop the fight?


 How is one to determine whether he is hurt or not?  I guess at least Kimbo gave a signal to the ref that he was ok.  However, I'm not sure how a ref would determine whether Vera was ok without the rule stating the figher must intelligently defend himself (which Vera wasn't doing...why wasn't he?  probably because he wasn't ok)

6/9/08 11:24 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
VectorWegaLives
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/7/08
Posts: 844
AmidaHidan - I think of Not Intellegently defending as in you are dizzy or rocked 
 

Uhhh..how do you know if Vera was dizzy or not?  He did get hit on the chin and he lied there attempting to get into the fetal position.  Your way of determining whether a fighter is intelligently defending himself is too subjective.  The fact that everyone knows the rules and Vera still didn't try to better his position tells me that more than likely he wasn't thinking clearly.

6/9/08 11:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BJ > DORKUS
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 30551

 "Again.............why?"

The argument is that without intelligently defending, you *will* be hurt. The idea is to stop the fight before someone is hurt, not after. If you stick your arms out and turn on your side with your eyes closed, you are not fighting and it is a matter of time (seconds) before you are hurt. Since you're not fighting back anyway, why should the ref wait until you are injured before stopping it?

6/9/08 11:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
320 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 22936
Kirik -  This sport is in the business of getting punched in the face, so if the occasional shot is getting through, that is not neccessarily danger. It is clear shots, most notably those that cause the head to bounce off the ground that are most significant.


So in Vera's case, did he take enough damaging shots to constitute being dazed enough to be the "unintelligent" state?

I say no.


There are a wide variety of intelligent defenses to strikes from Mount including bridging, shrimping, bodylocking, trapping the arms and or head, backdoor escaping, rolling and posting up, and moving the head. While covering the head is an integral part of various techniques, it does not by ieself constiture intelligent defense.


 



But imo covering alone does not necessarily mean you're in the "unintelligent" state either.

Still comes back to the same question:

Did Vera take enough shots to for a TKO? What if a fight were stopped because you backed up your opponent into the corner and you were firing away but maybe out of 30 punches, only 5 got thru and none of them rocked your opponent?

Do stop the fight anyhow, because he's only covering and not getting out of the corner?

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.