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UnderGround Forums >> The Full Circle Evolution, Birth of modern MMA...


6/11/08 3:49 AM
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shanoknowsmma
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The Full Circle Evolution, Resurrection & Birth of modern MMA (strange facts)...

MMA in Japan derived from SHOOTO, Pancrase & Rings, which gave birth to the PRIDE FIGHTING CHAMPIONSHIPS, DEEP, CAGE FORCE, HEROES, DREAM, etc.
All three of those early MMA bodies were derived from Puroresu (Japanese style Pro-wrestling). Which was derived from a hybrid of Catch-wrestling (& kickboxing). Which was derived from Greco-Roman/Freestyle wrestling (and some say descended from ancient Pankration).

(Kickboxing was a hybrid of various Karate styles and Muay Thai)

Catch-wrestling (which used real submissions but was boring for Americans), in America 'devolved' into the modern-day freak show of WWE/WCW/TNA style pro-"wrasslin".

Modern Boxing actually evolved from a NHB type of free-for-all type of brawl that might have resembled early UFC's.

MMA in Brazil was derived from Vale Tudo events that were the results of the JuJistu techniques a Japanese Judo/JuJistu master taught to a bunch of Brazlian kids in the early part of the 20th Century. Some of his techniques evolved into another style called Luta Livre. The other became two families of Brazlian Jiu-Jitsu...the most popular one being the style of the Gracie family.
These two styles converged in NHB Vale Tudo and grappling events and eventually were joined with Judo, Wrestling & Muay Thai to evolve into modern MMA.

This Japanese Judo master once fought as a Pro-wrestler (Catch-wrestling style - with real subs), in America and Europe.
Some of the American wrestlers he and other Japanese Judokas fought went on to blend the Judo/JuJitsu techniques with their own Catch-wrestling techniques.
Two of these famous wrestlers eventually went to Japan and started teaching this style there. Which of course led to MMA in Japan.

MMA in America derived from the Brazlian Jiu-Jitsu/Vale Tudo fighters and Japanese Pancrase fighters introducing NHB in the first UFC. Eventually SHOOTO (the oldest, most organized and regulated MMA body), became more of an influence and after NHB/MMA nearly died in America, the sport was resurrected by the new owners of the UFC, and modern MMA was born.

Global unified MMA is soon to follow...we hope.
6/11/08 3:58 AM
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shanoknowsmma
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If someone would like to fill-in any details. Please, be my guest!
6/11/08 8:58 AM
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614
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I was at Sears the other day and saw a pair of Everlast MMA gloves.

On the back of the package, Everlast claimed that Pankrationists in Alexander the Great's army brought their style of unarmed combat to India, where it spread East and became the foundation of Asian Martial arts.

I'm unsure if this is accurate, because most cultures had a history of wrestling before 684 BC.
6/11/08 11:18 AM
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VikingChoke
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Thanx for the informative post
6/11/08 11:18 AM
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VikingChoke
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Thanx for the informative post
6/11/08 1:02 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 06/11/08 1:02 PM
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great post shano. one question - wasn't a big part of the Lutre Livre movement martial artists that DIDN'T come from Judo/Jiujitsu?
6/13/08 12:43 AM
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shanoknowsmma
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Edited: 06/13/08 12:47 AM
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"great post shano. one question - wasn't a big part of the Lutre Livre movement martial artists that DIDN'T come from Judo/Jiujitsu?"

Yes. But from what i've read and heard, Lutra Livre was inspired by the Vale Tudo competitions that were started by the Jiu-Jitsu practitioners of the Gracie family.

Some say Lutra Livre is a hybrid style of Catch Wrestling and kickboxing. But who or when it was started (in Brazil), nobody seems to know.
Seems to me that it's nothing more than a hybrid form of wrestling and no-gi Jiu-Jitsu...with Muay Thai techniques later added in.

Most likely it was the wrestlers and strikers way of creating their own style to counter Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

But i could be wrong.
6/13/08 1:16 AM
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fightpimp
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 great post.....FP


6/13/08 1:28 AM
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xkmasada
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Edited: 06/13/08 1:40 AM
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Great post, shano, but you forgot to mention the full circle of evolution embodied in the history of Judo and jujitsu:

In the late 19th century, Jigoro Kano tried to create an ultimate hybrid of 19th century jiu-jitsu and wrestling forms. He combined the teaching methods, choking, and pinning techniques of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, with throws from Kito-ryu jujutsu, with miscellaneous techniques from western wrestling, and a moral philosophy that had roots in Western humanism to create what was first called Kano Jujitsu, and is today known as Judo. The Kodokan Institute was established to develop it.

But Judo/Jujitsu did not remain static. By the early 20th century, technical universities in Japan had developed a style of judo that emphasized ground technique. They soon dominated Judo competitions. Kano decided to step in in 1925 and change the rules to make competitions more balanced and not all ground-focused.

Note that Mitsuyo Maeda went to Brazil to demonstrate Judo/Jujitsu BEFORE the 1925 reforms, so the form he demonstrated to the Gracie brothers had much more ground technique than the modern Judo we know of today. In fact, you could argue that traditional Gracie Jujitsu is in some respects more similar to pre-1925 Judo than modern Judo.

This is why matches like Yoshida v. Gracie have much more historical significance than most UG noobs realize.

And likewise, the long history between catch wrestling and judo explains why Yoshida v. Barnett, Yoshida v. Gardner, Royce v. Hughes, and the Gracie v. Sakuraba feud were so significant.
6/13/08 1:47 AM
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xkmasada
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Sambo gets mixed in the history of judo/wrestling/MMA as well. I understand that both Oschepkov and Spiridonov trained under Kano, for instance, but that's just about it.

Could anybody explain just how Sambo came about, and what it took from Judo and catch-wrestling?
6/14/08 9:40 AM
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shanoknowsmma
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ttt
6/14/08 10:47 AM
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shanoknowsmma
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The Judo and Sambo side stories are nice. But i wanted to show only what directly effect the evolution/creation of the sport.

Though it's a good story because, yes, they both did have a part in it.
6/14/08 1:31 PM
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Ocean6
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Shano wrote:
"The other became two families of Brazlian Jiu-Jitsu...the most popular one being the style of the Gracie family."

Who was the other family?

Thanks for the history lesson. I love eet!
6/14/08 3:15 PM
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shanoknowsmma
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Edited: 06/14/08 3:18 PM
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Ocean6 - Shano wrote:

"The other became two families of Brazlian Jiu-Jitsu...the most popular one being the style of the Gracie family."


Who was the other family?


Thanks for the history lesson. I love eet!

Franca/Fadda lineage...

http://judoforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t14748.html

They used to have a website but it no longer exists.

The Gracie family developed the art of Judo into a more effective rules-free style. While in Brazil, I learned about a Grand Master named "Fadda," who learned Jiu-Jitsu from a man named Luis Franca. Like Carlos Gracie, Franca also learned Jiu-Jitsu (Judo) from Meada. Oswaldo Fadda took the Jiu-Jitsu he learned from Franca and started his own school of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil. His popularity is not as great as the Gracie family, but nonetheless, he is an example of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu being refined and practiced outside the Gracie family. His students compete in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu tournaments and consider their art separate from both Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the older styles of Jiu-Jitsu in Japan. This stands as evidence that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is not the same thing.
6/14/08 3:22 PM
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shanoknowsmma
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shanoknowsmma - "great post shano. one question - wasn't a big part of the Lutre Livre movement martial artists that DIDN'T come from Judo/Jiujitsu?"


Yes. But from what i've read and heard, Lutra Livre was inspired by the Vale Tudo competitions that were started by the Jiu-Jitsu practitioners of the Gracie family.


Some say Lutra Livre is a hybrid style of Catch Wrestling and kickboxing. But who or when it was started (in Brazil), nobody seems to know.

Seems to me that it's nothing more than a hybrid form of wrestling and no-gi Jiu-Jitsu...with Muay Thai techniques later added in.


Most likely it was the wrestlers and strikers way of creating their own style to counter Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.


But i could be wrong.



This forum post seems to have some interesting historical info on Lutra Livre...

http://judoforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t14748.html
9/29/08 4:45 PM
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shanoknowsmma
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Has anyone on here ever trained under the Fadda's?
9/29/08 5:18 PM
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Almanac
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ttt
10/3/08 1:31 PM
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shanoknowsmma
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Edited: 06/06/10 12:23 PM
Member Since: 10/23/07
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For some more interesting facts on the history of MMA, see my other thread...

America's First Mixed Martial Artist...
6/6/10 12:22 PM
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shanoknowsmma
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 Just posted this here...

http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=txforemancotto

Listen,
 to all you "die-hard" boxing fans...i used to watch boxing nearly 24/7...from the 1970's to the early 1990's...i also boxed a little as a kid...and, barring the rare & occasional Tyson or Pac-Man, it is a one-dimensional bore-fest.
 Gone are the glory days of the Salvador Sanchez's, Alex Arguello's, Roberto Duran's, Hagler/Hearns, etc., etc... It will never be what it once was.

 Boxing is a joke when compared to MMA.

 Some of you are saying that MMA is a "fad", and will "pass with time"...WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM!??? Mixed Martial Arts is TEN TIMES more popular than boxing! ...and it's growing at a rate that will make it (easily), one of the top 5 most popular sports in the World, within a few years from now.

 Few watch boxing as much as i did. And i had stacks & stacks of Ring Magazine, World Boxing, K.O. mag., etc., etc...
 But this sport is dying fast and i could not be happier about it. It's boring, corrupt, brutal (an avg of 200 hard blows to the skull in a 12 rd. fight!), and deadly (TEN TIMES MORE DEADLY THAN MMA!)...an avg of 5 boxers die EVERY YEAR!, in the past 100 years.
 In MMA?: Only 2 have died in the past 100 years...and one of them died because he already had a bad heart and couldn't get cleared to fight in America (and that was over ten years ago).

 There is no comparison to how much better MMA is to Boxing...in every respect...better training, more exciting, safer, and it incorporates nearly every aspect of combat sport fighting styles and martial arts (Boxing, Kickboxing, Wrestling, Judo, Jiu-jitsu, Karate, Kung-fu, Muay Thai, etc., etc...).

Boxing is dying...and more & more boxers are realizing that their future is in MMA. Soon they will be earning bigger pay-days than any boxer.

 MMA is here to stay...and is growing at a phenomenal rate...

 UFC, WEC, STRIKEFORCE, BELLATOR, DREAM...and literally THOUSANDS of other promotions the World over!

 Goodbye Boxing!

--shanoknowsmma

6/6/10 12:43 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Great first post, shano...

So here's some details to be added...The two famous Catch wrestlers who went to Japan and taught the Japanese were Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch.
6/6/10 12:45 PM
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Victor Parlati
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Martial arts in India can be traced back at least 5,000 years, to the time of Lord Krishna.
6/6/10 12:56 PM
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BeerMuscles
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Luta Livre expert Marcelo Brigadeiro had a thread on here in which he said the founders of Luta Livre learned from traveling pro wrestlers, so that would make Luta Livre a brazilian off shoot of CACC, kinda like Shoot-Wrestling is the Japanese off shoot of CACC.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't MMA fighter and BJJ phenom Jacare come from the Oswaldo Fadda lineage? Meaning Jacare's lineage does not directly go through a Gracie?
6/6/10 1:12 PM
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wmkelleo
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ttt 4 more history lessons
6/6/10 1:17 PM
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shanoknowsmma
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Victor Parlati - Great first post, shano...

So here's some details to be added...The two famous Catch wrestlers who went to Japan and taught the Japanese were Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch.


Very true. Thanks!
6/6/10 1:17 PM
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shanoknowsmma
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Edited: 06/06/10 1:19 PM
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shanoknowsmma -  Just posted this here...

http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=txforemancotto

Listen,
 to all you "die-hard" boxing fans...i used to watch boxing nearly 24/7...from the 1970's to the early 1990's...i also boxed a little as a kid...and, barring the rare & occasional Tyson or Pac-Man, it is a one-dimensional bore-fest.
 Gone are the glory days of the Salvador Sanchez's, Alex Arguello's, Roberto Duran's, Hagler/Hearns, etc., etc... It will never be what it once was.

 Boxing is a joke when compared to MMA.

 Some of you are saying that MMA is a "fad", and will "pass with time"...WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM!??? Mixed Martial Arts is TEN TIMES more popular than boxing! ...and it's growing at a rate that will make it (easily), one of the top 5 most popular sports in the World, within a few years from now.

 Few watch boxing as much as i did. And i had stacks & stacks of Ring Magazine, World Boxing, K.O. mag., etc., etc...
 But this sport is dying fast and i could not be happier about it. It's boring, corrupt, brutal (an avg of 200 hard blows to the skull in a 12 rd. fight!), and deadly (TEN TIMES MORE DEADLY THAN MMA!)...an avg of 5 boxers die EVERY YEAR!, in the past 100 years.
 In MMA?: Only 2 have died in the past 100 years...and one of them died because he already had a bad heart and couldn't get cleared to fight in America (and that was over ten years ago).

 There is no comparison to how much better MMA is to Boxing...in every respect...better training, more exciting, safer, and it incorporates nearly every aspect of combat sport fighting styles and martial arts (Boxing, Kickboxing, Wrestling, Judo, Jiu-jitsu, Karate, Kung-fu, Muay Thai, etc., etc...).

Boxing is dying...and more & more boxers are realizing that their future is in MMA. Soon they will be earning bigger pay-days than any boxer.

 MMA is here to stay...and is growing at a phenomenal rate...

 UFC, WEC, STRIKEFORCE, BELLATOR, DREAM...and literally THOUSANDS of other promotions the World over!

 Goodbye Boxing!

--shanoknowsmma


This guy actually reposted my reply...

http://a323.yahoofs.com/coreid/4a6f1bd9i1eaazul3re3/nHnzv2wzcqFShQuy3.rag8pa/101/t192.jpg?ciAQ2PNBfG.rqhbz
 Chris 55 minutes ago Report Abuse
So well written and true I wanted to repost this.
http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=txforemancotto




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