UnderGround Forums
 

DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> Did the lawyers cause this?


3/7/02 8:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gjkhoury
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
 
Think of it: A plane is hijacked. People are going berserk. The terrorists announce, "Nobody move or the bitch here gets it!" Noticing blood on his hands and the frightening fact that there are a lot less flight attendants walking around than a moment ago, you deduce that someone has been murdered and that you don't want to be next. You look at the guy next to you and say, "Fuck it. I'm not going down like this." Moments later, you spring from your seat. The terrorist slits the throat of his hostage and starts to turn the knife on you. As he does, you slam into him and start your onslaught. Ripping through him, you're quickly onto the next criminal but not before he, too, kills his hostage. Somehow, events wind up going your way. The terrorists are thwarted and you emerge a hero--for the moment. As an investigation into the hijacking begins, the husband of the woman who was first murdered and the brother of the second victim point to you as the cause of their deaths. You created the havoc that got their loved ones murdered and YOU'RE responsible because "if you had just done what the terrorists said, none of this would have ever happened!" This has been running through my brain since last Tuesday and it hasn't been pleasant. In most places, you need only a moral or ethical rationale to defend yourself or others. In the U.S., however, you need a legal one as well. Shit, I used to be a cop and even back then the smartest thing to do in an off-duty conflict often seemed to be simply walk away. Hell, even ON duty, you know better than anyone that police officers are blamed for everything from causing carjackers to flee at high speeds to compelling criminals to commit violence, when--minus the presence of the officer--it is argued that they would not be prone to such acts or deeds! Yes, people "froze". No, it seems that nobody "did anything" onboard those flights to keep them from finding their targets. But let me ask you this, had that flight that went down near Pittsburgh been the only one that day, and had those people acted and overwhelmed their attackers and had there been deaths on that plane "resulting" from their efforts, where do you think those "heroes" would be now? This needs to be seriously considered. I was taught growing up to "mind my own business". Maybe that's all the passengers on those hijacked flights were doing as well? For what it's worth. Gary
3/7/02 8:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gjkhoury
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
In regards to last Tuesday's terrorist attack on America, Coach Blauer has finally NAILED a key element in the contributing factors that led to the successful overtaking of those planes. Each of us has imagined leaping from our seats (or not!), wrestling terrorists, fighting off bad guys and ultimately prevailing. The flip side of this, and a discussion that has been given some life revolves around how we might (or might not!) behave if our child, or the guy's wife sitting next us or a flight attendant had been taken hostage and threatened with lethal force. Others among us have theorized about how terrorist must have told passengers to "stay and your seats and no one will get hurt" and how even the least trusting of us might have truly wanted to believe those sentiments for the sake of ourselves and others aboard those ill-fated flights. But still no one has observed this poignant but obvious fact: America, the most litigious society in the entire world, has created a culture of bystanders who are literally afraid to act! Think of the statement made to Coach as he offered to take action if necessary before his last flight. Coach writes: The male flight attendant looked at me, tilted his head as if not understanding and said, "Let me talk to the captain and see if that’s OK, we might not want you to do anything..." WHY?! Because they don't want to be safe? Because they don't want their passengers saved? No. They're not sure if they want you to act because they, undoubtedly like many of the passengers of Tuesday's hijacked airliners, are/were afraid of the complications and legal ramifications that an "out-of-control" vigilante might have if s/he "interfered" in a complex and chaotic series of criminal events. continued. . .
3/7/02 8:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Donvito
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
There are many points that Gary makes in his post that I agree with wholeheartedly. I am struck ,however, not by the thought that peolple do not act because of fear of legal reprisal, but rather by the undeniable presence of the cardinal indicators of the dreaded "PC". How many times have we heard or read Coach Blauer educate on the dangers of "Presumed Compliance"? If we do what they say, everything will turn out okay. How many times have I flown? How many times have I been hijacked? Is this really happening? How many of the passengers that were on any of theose flights, to include the "professionals" do you think replicated a highjacking scenario in a realistic manner?, how many BMFs were conducted by the crew to develop the mental blueprint to allow them to act?; as Coach Blauer says "...to give them permission to kick someones ass..." Noone can ever know how they will act in a specific scenario, until they are actually in it, but you can definitely give yourself the best possible opportunity for success through effective training. How would last tuesday have been different if the flight crews of those fateful flights had been trained in the princples of TCMS? We will never know for sure... but I've got a pretty good idea. For what it's worth. Ron
3/7/02 8:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tony Blauer
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
Ron, you hit the nail on the head. My pre-flight boarding included Mental BMF's. Guess what we're all doing at the Advanced PDR?? FYI, I have been in contact with the US Marshals and the Air Marshals and have already been contacted by several pilots I have worked with through ALPA [one with AMerican]so we'll see....some of the elements the Gary so lucidly pointed out concern me...those of you in my advanced sessions remember me talking about the part of the human psyche that overides reality to create fantasy to make it all OK, psychologists call it 'denial'. Stay safe, T
3/7/02 8:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tony Blauer
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
Awesome post Gary, but it may be too Wild West for our Liberal society. Tony
3/7/02 8:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Eric Cobb
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
Gary: One of the most lucid posts I've read in a long time... You've raised some points that are very near and dear to my heart. However, before weighing in with my opinion I would like to hear some of the Team's wisdom. A parting thought that I read maybe two weeks ago from a well known LEO trainer: "I wonder how many officers have died with their last thoughts being about lawsuits and litigation..." Looking forward to the discussion. Eric
3/7/02 8:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tony Blauer
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
It is a war story. Wars are fought by soldiers, soldiers are humans, humans are made up of three arsenals [emotional, psyhcological, physical] if 'we' as a community erode delberatness by messing with confidence, focus or attitude we debiltate the body/mind system that makes up the individual soldier. In other words, your perosnal Rules of Engagemnt had been damaged by a Zero Tolerance PC blanket that did not take into account personal safety but rather political safety. Protect the image not the asset. Fucking politics. Tony
3/7/02 8:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gjkhoury
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
"I wonder how many officers have died with their last thoughts being about lawsuits and litigation..." This is SO incredibly true--and scary. . .especially since I have had it happen to me. When I returned from Japan a few years back, I was interviewing with everyone, including the FBI and CIA. I knew that if I were going to have a chance with these or any other organization, I was going to have to keep my nose SUPER clean. With all that running through my head, my friends and I were attacked outside a local bar (Yeah, what was I doing there to begin with, Mr. Clean Nose?!). As punches rained down on my head, I kept one eye out for the cop I had seen inside, lest I wind up arrested and out of the running for the jobs I sought. Long story short, I did not defend myself as I would have liked with "extreme prejudice" as Coach says. I basically did as little as I had to do to escape without harm, but felt like I "pussed out" in the end. The price I have had to pay is the price all fighters face when they walk away from a fight. And since then, it's been a long road back. Sorry, this is not a war story, just a personal rationalization for the view I took above. Already I have received some private email questioning whether or not the "Legal Freeze" phenomenon really exists. I can tell you first hand that for MOST law-abiding citizens, it does! Regards, Gary PS: Ron--BINGO!!
3/7/02 12:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jimmy23
42 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
great link gary
3/7/02 12:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gjkhoury
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
You know what, though, NEVER AGAIN! From now on, there will be a different directive--at least for me. For others as well, the "call to action" is intensifying. Check out this link for a clue to America's fast-changing attitude towards involvement: http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20010919-6357240.htm Be safe, Gary
3/7/02 12:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
mrchaple
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Mar-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 0
You guys, especially Gary, nailed it 100%. I have fortunately never had to face the legal ramifications of protecting myself but it's something that pops in my head every time I visualize an attack or get the vibe from someone.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.