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Weapons UnderGround >> MMA/BJJ with weapons.


8/21/08 9:19 AM
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Joe Maffei
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www.youtube.com/watch 

7     raw clips on utube to add weapons to your ground game.
 
            Joe Maffei.
9/2/08 4:09 AM
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supersaiyan
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ttt 4 lata
9/13/08 9:42 PM
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ryangruhn
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 I'm worried first off that someone is going to see my Dundee knife hanging off my calf when I'm wearing shorts.  In the event that I'm wearing jeans or long pants don't we need to be able to not only draw the knife but remove the pant leg first to get to it?  I'm not contesting this idea, just throwing counter arguments out there.

9/15/08 7:02 AM
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Steven Lefebvre
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Hello,

For calf sheathed blades , use the reverse (upside down carry position) this will allow the draw of the concealed weapon while on the ground. (Think Kydex for retention!)

Also, BJ Penn has recently been training with the Sayoc Tactical Group. Tuhon Kayanan has posted a photo on the Sayoc forum, check it out.

Nice clips Joe!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net
www.Sayoc.com
9/16/08 5:04 PM
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Joe Maffei
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ryangruhn
There is a technique called the double pump re deploying wearing full legged pants. please watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiEQMtwmQ9Y

Hey Steve what's up bro.
Thanks buddy for the nice words..

Regarding upside down carry position not good because

1. the concept does not interchange well with firearm deployment and we don't want to mess with the deployment route, and

2 the upside down deployment does not function well with all the high % positions.

BTW have you talked to Tom lately???
9/16/08 11:12 PM
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ryangruhn
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 Joe,

Thank you for the clip.  I still feel that pants will become an issue.  Loose Jiu-Jitsu pants even become tight when you raise your knees on the bottom.

I respect your methodology and have played with the ankle draw fairly extensively.  Might I also add that I work with rather high level BJJ practitioners and MMA fighters on a daily basis so my knowledge on the ground game with strikes is also sound.  Lastly, I like to test my abilities inside Dog Brothers Gatherings so the thought of weapons, plus strikes, plus ground work also resonates with me.  Believe you me, the ground is my home when I fight.

With that said, I'd like to think that I have a strong grasp on the ground work that surrounds your concept.  I am offering up a friendly debate to find some truth behind your methods.  I'd like to counter your concept with the following issues:

1.  I'd like to see the mount/cross side draw done when strikes are in play, this includes head buts, elbows, etc.

2.  I'd also like to see limb control added to the mix.  In other words, the person in the dominating position looking to keep the "quick draw" person from drawing.  I'm assuming a survival situation not sporting context so if I was on top I would be assuming the person on bottom is considering an equalizer.

3.  Lastly, I'd like to see the person on top looking to draw a weapon themself.  This includes all options for carrying knife and gun along with ankle.

4.  Is ankle a sound way of drawing when not on the ground?  If not, does this mean that I'll have to carry in another place for when the fight is standing?  If so, are the any issues?

If these three issues are tackled sucessfully I'll be more open to the concept but at this point I'm having trouble with the drawing system.
9/17/08 9:48 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Edited: 09/17/08 9:52 AM
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Hey Ryan

Thank you for the interest and ask any questions you want, a friendly debate and counters are a healthy learning tool.

First; "Loose Jiu-Jitsu pants even become tight when you raise your knees on the bottom."

Your right, the technique is this, don't try to pull your pant leg up, it will only snag, so this is how it is done. example : under the mount ok?

1. With your knee bent, grasp your pants @ or slightly above the knee on the inside, hold the pant tight and extend your leg. this will raise the pants and expose the weapon. As soon as you straighten your leg immediately retract it , this should put the butt/handle right in your hand. Make sure you are on your hip, like BJJ, hips are very important to the plays (techniques). Always slide your hand down your leg with continuous contact, follow the contour. Never just try to grab the weapon, use sensitivity and feeling. Closely review the clip again and you will see the subtlety of the pant technique, then go back and try it k Ryan.

I am glad you have experience with MMA/BJJ and the Brothers, it makes my life easier when working with someone with knowledge.

I would like to tackle each issue one at a time if that's ok with you?
.
All you question are valid. As a pre requisite I generally ask all be at least a good blue/purple belt with at least a few years of MMA training. This will ensure the person has good fundamentals prior to starting my system. in other words defending against strikes and submission has already been trained in the fighter prior to the quick Draw, so he knows what he is in for, ok, This should answer question 1 $ 2. This is a huge mistake that weapon's folk make , their fundamentals in MMA are sometime poor and they think that they can fill the gap with a weapon. At times maybe, but on a consistent close quarter fight, you need good fundies if you want a high % result.

"3. Lastly, I'd like to see the person on top looking to draw a weapon themself. This includes all options for carrying knife and gun along with ankle."

With so many possibilities of a carry systems, I train the guys to defend the high % and most common carries, the waist and ankle carries.. There are many more carries but these are the main ones.. With that said the clinch is very important to this system. Pummeling for inside position (body lock) while keeping the opponent of balance is a key to defending against any high % deployment by the opponent.
By having a strong tight clinch game you accomplish defending against strikes/submission and weapon deployment while extracting your own weapon. You become a leather man (multi tool) and as a hunter camper you know how important that tool can be in a survival situation.
You can see this progression. The bump & smoother, the double pump, and the deployment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrgOkAuVlTY


4. "Is ankle a sound way of drawing when not on the ground? If not, does this mean that I'll have to carry in another place for when the fight is standing? If so, are the any issues?"

My system consists of a four weapon carry.

1. Moseberg Short barrel 12g short gun

2, Sig 229, 40cal side arm

2. Smith $ Wesson 442 air weight hammerless revolver w/ custom holster.

4. My own custom Knife made by bud Nealy with shoulder carry. http://prosites-jmjkd.homestead.com/merchindice.html

If I knew I was going to be in the shit, this is what I would use. but truthfully I don't usually walk around carrying anything more then my
muli tool. but for different trips I pack accordingly ?

BTW what style are you using for your ankle deployment??? you said that you have played with the ankle draw fairly extensively. Maybe it's the carry system that is giving you the problem with the draw?

J.M.
9/17/08 10:50 AM
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ryangruhn
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 Joe,

Thank you for the reply.  Can you respond to my first concern regarding strikes?  Is this something we would be able to see at some point?  A Gathering might be a great environment to test this and I'm always game for playing.  As you can see, I'm worried that when the focus goes away from defense and escaping we might have an issue with the person on the bottom getting knocked silly before they have a chance to draw their weapon.  I see the bear hug is one defense you impose which does make it easier to draw from the ankle.  However, adding awareness to the person on top that the person on bottom is trying to draw a weapon should change things drastically.  Lastly, will this change things when the person on top is also going for the ankle holstered weapon of their bottom opponent?  I've seen a persons knife used on them numerous times in Gatherings.  At one Gathering it happened to the same guy three times in a row! 

In regards to the ankle draw I've played with several different holsters for both hand gun and knife.  Some ride low on the ankle, others hold tight to the calf.  I've tried both reverse and handle up holstering for knife.  Hand gun has always been right side up holstering.

 

9/17/08 1:30 PM
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Joe Maffei
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this is how it is tested.
http://cnthegame.homestead.com/CNthegame.html
9/17/08 4:38 PM
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ryangruhn
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Thanks Joe,

Do you have any footage of the times you've tested the structure with the rules stated in the write up?  I'd like to see how it played out.
9/18/08 8:28 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Footage of all out fighting using the GAME is coming. What I do have is some footage of me introducing the concept of how to play the Game with beginners, just average tough guys, and some of the do's and don't on an armature level, meaning no striking yet. The progression of learning is modeled after BJJ, fundamentals first then add strikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIO7Q_xWL_0
9/22/08 9:07 AM
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Steven Lefebvre
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Hi Joe,

Sorry for the delayed reply! Keeping way too busy here!
I haven't seen Tom for sometime now, chatted with him via email awhile ago but that's about it.

Handgun - Holster up always,
Blade - I holster reverse, draw is very smooth while grappling!!

Talk to you again soon!

Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net
www.Sayoc.com

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