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HolyGround >> alternate view to Great Deception...2nd Thess.

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1/28/11 12:15 AM
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the rooster
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Grakman -  Lots of people believe that God <b><i>has </i></b>brought them a revelation. Oddly enough, it is not the same as what was revealed to you. ;)


me: ? so?

Everyone man must work out his salvation 'with fear and trembling" and the disciples of Berean were extolled because they checked those things Paul said in the scriptures to see if those things were so.

We are told that we must "rightly divide the word of truth". Clearly someone has the truth. Someone has revelation. The whole world is not in darkness. The apostles, the prophets, disciples, all felt comfortable being right. there was a time when I was searching. With some things, I no longer search. I found the pearl of great price. There is a time to accept what you found.

Is it exclusive? Yes, but so is saying one must "believe in Jesus" (I guess that's mental assent), or confess Jesus, or believe in God, etc. Anyway you slice it, you are condemning at leas some large amount of the population as unsaved.

I know I will be judged by the word of God and my own actions cannot save me. But if I point to God's own Holy Words as the inspiration for my beliefs and actions, that is all I can do.

"Yay, let God be true and every man a liar".

1/28/11 2:40 PM
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Grakman
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Have you considered the possibility that perhaps your interpretation, or that of your denomination, is the wrong one?
1/29/11 6:25 AM
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Robert Wynne
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 Rooster..you do realize that i find none of your answers to my questions as plausible?

I just do not want to argue with you on this subject.

Does your pastor still believe that all FreeMasons are devil worshippers?
2/1/11 12:13 AM
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the rooster
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Grakman - Have you considered the possibility that perhaps your interpretation, or that of your denomination, is the wrong one?


me: maybe when it was first shown to me. It was uncomfortable to fathom that a majority of Christendom was wrong. It was very uncomfortable to think that all my years growing up Catholic were years wasted with false teaching. So, I sought out pastors, preachers, priests, and even non Christians to try to focus on their views/interpretations vs what was being pointed out to me in the bible. I saw to much inconsistency from their side.

Then when I actually experienced the new birth, I actually experienced repentance, baptism in Jesus name for the remission of sins, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues...I was blown away. It solidified that what I read, what I saw, how I felt, when practically applied, was true. It was life altering, mind altering, behavior altering, word altering, future altering, etc. It was the start of a true relationship with the living God.

Since then, I've spent over 20 years debating and reviewing again and again the trinity vs a "oneness" model for Christology, the essentiality of baptism invoking the name of Jesus, the baptism of the Holy Ghost, etc. and I have not found anyone who caused me to even pause on those topics.

So, that would be the extent. I know I'm not wrong.
2/1/11 12:13 AM
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the rooster
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Grakman - Have you considered the possibility that perhaps your interpretation, or that of your denomination, is the wrong one?


me: maybe when it was first shown to me. It was uncomfortable to fathom that a majority of Christendom was wrong. It was very uncomfortable to think that all my years growing up Catholic were years wasted with false teaching. So, I sought out pastors, preachers, priests, and even non Christians to try to focus on their views/interpretations vs what was being pointed out to me in the bible. I saw to much inconsistency from their side.

Then when I actually experienced the new birth, I actually experienced repentance, baptism in Jesus name for the remission of sins, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues...I was blown away. It solidified that what I read, what I saw, how I felt, when practically applied, was true. It was life altering, mind altering, behavior altering, word altering, future altering, etc. It was the start of a true relationship with the living God.

Since then, I've spent over 20 years debating and reviewing again and again the trinity vs a "oneness" model for Christology, the essentiality of baptism invoking the name of Jesus, the baptism of the Holy Ghost, etc. and I have not found anyone who caused me to even pause on those topics.

So, that would be the extent. I know I'm not wrong.
2/1/11 12:18 AM
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the rooster
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Robert Wynne -  Rooster..you do realize that i find none of your answers to my questions as plausible?

I just do not want to argue with you on this subject.

Does your pastor still believe that all FreeMasons are devil worshippers?


Well, maybe if you don't find my answers plausible we would have to go back one at a time to a particular question and answer. I'm more then happy to bat this around. The bible declares that Jesus is the Son of God, the Son of man, the Son of David, the Son of Mary. But the bible also declares that Jesus is God. I accept what the bible says about both aspects of Christ.

As to my pastor, I don't really chat every day, in fact, I really don't remember the last time I've discussed Free Masons with him, as they are pretty invisible as far as day to day interaction with me, or him. But sure, I'm pretty confident that most evangelical or conservative, bible based churches believe that Free Mason beliefs are false doctrine and some of the beliefs are not only extra biblical but anti biblical.

However, they are irrelevant to me day to day and I'm much more concerned about liberal secularist and radical muslims then free masons.

I understand if you don't want to bat the Christology stuff around but I do appreciate you asking my opinion, for what it's worth.
2/1/11 11:23 AM
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inlikeflynn
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Rooster: "So, that would be the extent. I know I'm not wrong."

No you don't. You believe you are right. There's a difference. If we could know these things for sure, there would be no need for faith.
2/1/11 3:30 PM
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zealot66
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the rooster - Ridgeback -  ^^^ exhibit A of scripture hammering.  

me: nope, an example of haronizing scripture. You have the command to baptize in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Spirit. *and the fufillment* by the apostles to this command by at least 4 examples of baptizing INVOKING THE NAME OF JESUS.

you: The word "name" clearly means "in the authority of."  

me: OF COURSE IT DOES. And what gives the invocation authority Ridge?!!?!? THE ACTUAL NAME! A bill signed "in the name of the President" has authority becaue it's actually signed by the current president. It would have no authority if signed by a former president or by the VP or a Governor if it only can be executed by the current president.

You are trying to pretend that you can divorce the name from the authority the name gives. Can't do it. And pretending that saying "be baptized in the name of Jesus isn't an actual invocation and example of the "formula". If that's the case, "In the name of the father, son and Holy spirit" also mean "authority and not an actual formula and we cannot know what was said.

Hogwash.

The singular authority is found in the singualr name.

you: It is odd that you are now taking that tact Rooster when before you simply argued that verse was added later by a corrupt church.  

me: Not taking a different tact. I still believe its historially apparent that Matthew 28:19 is a later interpolation. However, it doesn't matter. It still harmonizes completely with what THE APOSTLES DID. So if God allowed it, I take it as valid and scripure.

you: No matter how you slice it, your Bible was given to you by Trinitarians.  

me: nope my bible was given to me by the prophets and the scribes who faithfully transcribed the OT (not trinitarians) and the apostles and early followers who were not trinitarians. The canon was settled and exchanged well before the multiple "evolutions" of the doctrine of the trinity post the writings of the NT.

you: The settling of the canon happened after the Trinitarian nature of God was settled in council and the deutero-canon books were taken out by Protestants who were Trinitarians.  

me: no it wasn't. But this is a nice little swerve off the road we were discussing. How does one deal with Matthew 28:19. The answer is found in Acts, the actual actions of the apostles preaching and teaching and converting sinners.

you: You will never get around the historical fact you lend credence to their authority to put together the books of the Bible into an authoritative collection while denying their authority to clarify issues of theology.  

me: don't need to get around it. The church that stole property, killed those who disagreed, tortured and burned them at the stake holds no autority with me.

you: Other authorities of the godhead include the Cousin, the Uncle, and the Second Cousin"

me: no but they do include our "friend that sticketh closer then a brother", our "kinsmen redeemer", our "father of lights", and more. I have never seen cousin, uncle and second cousin so this might just be part of your propensity to add to the scriptures. Stick with the scriptures ridge, in them you will find eternal life according to the words of Jesus.
Sorry but this is really a OJ simpson like defense. You have contorted the evidence into your historical version of events. like Ridge pointing out that you are using a verse that you believe was not original and later interpolated by trinitarians into the scripture. 'In the name ( authority ) of the father son and holy spirit. A joint unit of power and entity all bearing the same authority. Yet I dont care to enter the debate at any length just a couple of observations. I'll never accept your reasoning on Jesus praying to himself. However you want to explain it, it makes no sense. And to distinctly say he would send the Holy Spirit. If these truths are so self evident, why are you in such a minority in christianity ? You cant equal 5% of the worlds christians, if that. This so very important aspect to the nature of God is closed off to the understanding of 95% of christendom just doesnt work with me.


I think this also, in the beginning of Christianity, the faith was centric on the person of Jesus Christ. It was pretty simple that Jesus was the messiah for mans sin. A new kingdom was being instituted and the leader was Jesus Christ. Its only in the following years and centuries that you really start to get the 'theology' of the scriptures and all the splits and arguments. Men take a relatively small set of documents and hundreds of people look at it, interpret it and confusion follows. 
 
2/1/11 7:20 PM
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Robert Wynne
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 "The Freemasons did something very radical 300 years ago. We said that men can agree that God exists and he compels them to do good in their life and we can stop all religious discussion at that point and go out and do good and help mankind. So Freemasons invite any believer in God to join them."


 
2/2/11 12:32 PM
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zealot66
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 Freemason paranoia is funny to me. There is no denying that America was heavily influenced by the Masons in Founding Fathers. It was a fraternity of leaders. They dont have power anymore. They like many other fraternities including the KKK that had a huge following in the early 20th century just dont anymore. You cant drag on conspiracies based on things that happened a hundred years ago.  The masons are basically almost defunct and old men who belong to a post college fraternity, imo.
2/3/11 6:42 AM
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Robert Wynne
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^ we give money to support childrens hospitals, police and firefighters, hold fundraisers, and work to help and improve the lives of others, while teaching the importance of good morals.

I have always found that it's the ones who do not like our freedom of a man's individual rights viewpoint that hate us. The conspiracy stories are simply sad.


Faith,Family,Brotherhood and Charity is what we stand for, sadly that is not the story told about us by most.
2/5/11 4:02 PM
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the rooster
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inlikeflynn - Rooster: "So, that would be the extent. I know I'm not wrong."

No you don't. You believe you are right. There's a difference. If we could know these things for sure, there would be no need for faith.


Bro, I know it like I know my name, I know my hair color, I know where I live. It is a fact that I know. I have seen, believed and applied the new birth according to what I read and received what was promised. I don't know how to quantify "know" to you but for me, I know :-)
2/5/11 4:02 PM
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the rooster
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inlikeflynn - Rooster: "So, that would be the extent. I know I'm not wrong."

No you don't. You believe you are right. There's a difference. If we could know these things for sure, there would be no need for faith.


Bro, I know it like I know my name, I know my hair color, I know where I live. It is a fact that I know. I have seen, believed and applied the new birth according to what I read and received what was promised. I don't know how to quantify "know" to you but for me, I know :-)
2/5/11 4:02 PM
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the rooster
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inlikeflynn - Rooster: "So, that would be the extent. I know I'm not wrong."

No you don't. You believe you are right. There's a difference. If we could know these things for sure, there would be no need for faith.


Bro, I know it like I know my name, I know my hair color, I know where I live. It is a fact that I know. I have seen, believed and applied the new birth according to what I read and received what was promised. I don't know how to quantify "know" to you but for me, I know :-)
2/5/11 4:02 PM
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the rooster
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inlikeflynn - Rooster: "So, that would be the extent. I know I'm not wrong."

No you don't. You believe you are right. There's a difference. If we could know these things for sure, there would be no need for faith.


Bro, I know it like I know my name, I know my hair color, I know where I live. It is a fact that I know. I have seen, believed and applied the new birth according to what I read and received what was promised. I don't know how to quantify "know" to you but for me, I know :-)
2/5/11 4:12 PM
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the rooster
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sorry for the stupid multiple posts. Was moving slow so I hit it a few more times.
2/5/11 4:27 PM
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the rooster
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Zealot: ]Sorry but this is really a OJ simpson like defense. You have contorted the evidence into your historical version of events.

me: No I haven't. Just because you say something is so, doesn't mean it's true. The trinity doctrine is false. Period.

you: like Ridge pointing out that you are using a verse that you believe was not original and later interpolated by trinitarians into the scripture. 'In the name ( authority ) of the father son and holy spirit.

me: so what? Zealot, take a minute and research Matthew 28:18. Many scholars believe th is was written in Hebrew first and based on the structure, Jesus (who just said all authority and power had been given to Him) said, "God ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in MY NAME. It also makes sense when you read Luke's version and Mark's version (preach repentance and remission of sins IN MY NAME...in MY NAME, THEY SHALL...).

But that being said, I'm fine with the greek copy and fine with what many scholars believe is a later trinitarian interpolation because God in His wisdom, allowed a revision that grammatically SAYS THE SAME THING! GO YE THEREFORE AND BAPTIZE IN *THE NAME* (1 name, not names) of the ("of" belonging to or pertaining to or possessed by) The Father (a title, not a proper name), the Son (a title, not a proper noun) and the Holy Spirit (another title, not a proper name!).

There is only One Name, worthy to possess all the attributes of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The One who "in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the godhead!".

The bible says the godhead (Father, Son and Spirit and everything else that is or describes God) was *in Christ*.

So His Name alone is the salvation name.

you: A joint unit of power and entity all bearing the same authority. Yet I dont care to enter the debate at any length just a couple of observations. I'll never accept your reasoning on Jesus praying to himself.

me: so what? I"ll never accept your reasoning of God praying to God. God doesn't pray, beg or implore.

But what you are really saying is that you will never accept what the bible says. Which is that Jesus prayed IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH! IT'S IN HEBREWS. READ IT.

you: However you want to explain it, it makes no sense. And to distinctly say he would send the Holy Spirit. If these truths are so self evident, why are you in such a minority in christianity ?

me: I don't know. why did only Noah and his kids and wife believe him? Oh wait, Noah didn't exist? Why did only a 1 nation follow God (Israel) and within that only a minority that truly believe? Why didn't anyone believe Jeremiah?! Not one person saved at the preaching of Jeremiah with the exception of maybe his scribe. Why didn't the people believe the prophets? Why only a minority in Israel believe in Jesus?

You see, that's a silly question. Straight is the way and narrow the way and few be that find it. But wide is the gate of destruction and there be many.

you: You cant equal 5% of the worlds christians, if that. This so very important aspect to the nature of God is closed off to the understanding of 95% of christendom just doesnt work with me.

me: See above. And many do have a practical belief in oneness. I talk to many in Christedom who see that while being in a trinitarian denomination. But nonetheless, let's say that trinitarians are right. How much of the world population is that? Why do the millions upon millions of muslims, jews, secularist, hindus, chinese, etc reject trinitarian view?

you: I think this also, in the beginning of Christianity, the faith was centric on the person of Jesus Christ. It was pretty simple that Jesus was the messiah for mans sin. A new kingdom was being instituted and the leader was Jesus Christ. Its only in the following years and centuries that you really start to get the 'theology' of the scriptures and all the splits and arguments. Men take a relatively small set of documents and hundreds of people look at it, interpret it and confusion follows. 
 
me: Yes, and that's why there are some what 6 or 8 "evolving" doctrines of the trinity that was unknown to the "primitive" church. Paul, the apostles, the prophets, none of them knew or spoke of a trinity. It's not biblical. It's extra biblical. That doesn't mean everything extrabiblical view is wrong, but in this case, something so fundamental as to the nature of God...c'mon. God could have inspired "trinune, trinity, 3 in 1, God the Son, Eternal Son, and all these other titles". He didn't. The Jews and Jewish Christians new only Deut 6:4. One God.

Whether you understand it or not, believe it or not, accept it or not, is irrelevant as to whether it's true or not.

God is one and He came in flesh. the bible says so. I accept it and receive it. Jesus *is* Lord.
2/5/11 4:31 PM
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the rooster
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Robert Wynne -  "The Freemasons did something very radical 300 years ago. We said that men can agree that God exists and he compels them to do good in their life and we can stop all religious discussion at that point and go out and do good and help mankind. So Freemasons invite any believer in God to join them."


 


me: Robert, I think that is a good point. Religion can be a source of contention, especially because religion is man's attempt to know God but real "religion" is God reaching down to man.

I wish you know ill will and am glad where we can agree and where we disagree, I hope it's civil disagreement born of a desire for truth.
2/5/11 4:32 PM
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the rooster
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Robert Wynne - ^ we give money to support childrens hospitals, police and firefighters, hold fundraisers, and work to help and improve the lives of others, while teaching the importance of good morals.

I have always found that it's the ones who do not like our freedom of a man's individual rights viewpoint that hate us. The conspiracy stories are simply sad.


Faith,Family,Brotherhood and Charity is what we stand for, sadly that is not the story told about us by most.


me: all good stuff on a macro level. As we dig in, I have heart felt desagreements, but that's ok. Life is not about being cookie cutter.
2/7/11 11:25 AM
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inlikeflynn
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the rooster - 
inlikeflynn - Rooster: "So, that would be the extent. I know I'm not wrong."

No you don't. You believe you are right. There's a difference. If we could know these things for sure, there would be no need for faith.


Bro, I know it like I know my name, I know my hair color, I know where I live. It is a fact that I know. I have seen, believed and applied the new birth according to what I read and received what was promised. I don't know how to quantify "know" to you but for me, I know :-)


I understand what you are saying in the larger sense of the Christian experience, but how exactly have you applied the "oneness" doctrine and received confirmation in a way that would be different than trinitarians experience?
2/7/11 1:24 PM
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Robert Wynne
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 rooster..we will probably disagree on many things, you take your religous views very seriously..as i do my masonic views.
2/7/11 6:18 PM
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Grakman
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inlikeflynn - 
the rooster - 
inlikeflynn - Rooster: "So, that would be the extent. I know I'm not wrong."

No you don't. You believe you are right. There's a difference. If we could know these things for sure, there would be no need for faith.


Bro, I know it like I know my name, I know my hair color, I know where I live. It is a fact that I know. I have seen, believed and applied the new birth according to what I read and received what was promised. I don't know how to quantify "know" to you but for me, I know :-)


I understand what you are saying in the larger sense of the Christian experience, but how exactly have you applied the "oneness" doctrine and received confirmation in a way that would be different than trinitarians experience?
ttt for the rooster's answer.
 
2/9/11 12:31 AM
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the rooster
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Robert Wynne -  rooster..we will probably disagree on many things, you take your religous views very seriously..as i do my masonic views.



me: well at least you have the internal fortitude to believe in something and stand up for yoru beliefs. I don't agree with you but I appreciate your personality. I understand it.
2/9/11 12:38 AM
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the rooster
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you: I understand what you are saying in the larger sense of the Christian experience, but how exactly have you applied the "oneness" doctrine and received confirmation in a way that would be different than trinitarians experience

ttt for the rooster's answer.

me: sorry guys, I have been swamped at work. You asked a good qestion. How does one apply the Oneness doctrine and receive confirmation.

Ultimately the Oneness doctrine is revelatory. It is the revelation of the nature of Christ.

And like Paul, when he (Paul, a Jew) said, "who art thou Lord", the response was, "I AM... Jesus (Yahshua) whom though persecutest...". He is YH our Salvation.

When you have the revelation, the application (of Oneness) is applied by putting on Christ (God's work through the agency of flesh) through the application of the new birth.

You repent to Him (not them) by faith, you are buried with Him (not them) by faith, according to the scriptures, and you receive Him (not them) through faith through the resurrecting power of the infilling of His Spirit.

To understand the nature of Christ is to compel one to believe the gospel (God came in flesh to die for our sins) and to apply and identify with that work (and in doing so proclaim whom He is and testify of His work).

And the result is the same as it was in acts 2, 8,10, 19, etc.

The signs given are the same signs you find in the NT when sinners are saved.

By applying Deut 6:4 you honor God and give Him glory for what He did.

2/9/11 1:33 PM
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inlikeflynn
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the rooster - you: I understand what you are saying in the larger sense of the Christian experience, but how exactly have you applied the "oneness" doctrine and received confirmation in a way that would be different than trinitarians experience

ttt for the rooster's answer.

me: sorry guys, I have been swamped at work. You asked a good qestion. How does one apply the Oneness doctrine and receive confirmation.

Ultimately the Oneness doctrine is revelatory. It is the revelation of the nature of Christ.

And like Paul, when he (Paul, a Jew) said, "who art thou Lord", the response was, "I AM... Jesus (Yahshua) whom though persecutest...". He is YH our Salvation.

When you have the revelation, the application (of Oneness) is applied by putting on Christ (God's work through the agency of flesh) through the application of the new birth.

You repent to Him (not them) by faith, you are buried with Him (not them) by faith, according to the scriptures, and you receive Him (not them) through faith through the resurrecting power of the infilling of His Spirit.

To understand the nature of Christ is to compel one to believe the gospel (God came in flesh to die for our sins) and to apply and identify with that work (and in doing so proclaim whom He is and testify of His work).

And the result is the same as it was in acts 2, 8,10, 19, etc.

The signs given are the same signs you find in the NT when sinners are saved.

By applying Deut 6:4 you honor God and give Him glory for what He did.



Right, but trinitarians down through the ages have experienced the very same things so how can they be confirmation of two opposing interpretations?

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