UnderGround Forums
 

SBGI >> Crazy Monkey and SBG


9/30/08 1:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Hoffa
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/17/00
Posts: 332
 
Matt or other SBG Coaches:

I had heard that you have moved away from extensively using the Crazy Monkey system in your gyms, and am curious as to what you have discarded, what you have kept, and what you have added in. I've started boxing sparring again, and am just trying to explore some new things to add to my game.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

-Hoffa
9/30/08 2:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matt Thornton
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3793
Hoffa, different SBG locations have always incorporated different stand up methods. For example, Steve Whittier teaches some really good Muay Thai, and is affiliated with Mark Delagrado's school. Here in Portland we have always taught boxing, and our competition team coach is Brian Walsh. Brian has a very unique approach to teaching boxing which is based heavily on movement. And it's been working great for our fighters.
9/30/08 3:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Hoffa
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/17/00
Posts: 333
Hey, Matt, thanks for the quick response. Can you explain the movement approach that Brian uses? Coming from a mainly Muay Thai background, I just started adding in head movement and more footwork: it is becoming evident that I need more work on the bob & weave, and/ or need more footwork, i.e. two black eyes in 3 weeks, ha. I know it is hard to convey the physical in words, but it literally kept me up last night analyzing about what I need to do or could have done different, so any advice is welcome. (Thankfully, I did come to the brillant conclusion that dropping your hands in the direction of a shoulder roll is a really bad idea!)
9/30/08 6:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matt Thornton
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3794
Your right its something that is close to impossible to explain in text, you really have to see him coaching.

But in short, it is about distance, movement, fakes and footwork. We don't want our athletes trading in MMA with the small golves on. So moving in, striking, and off at an angle, staying off the cage, putting people into the cage, head movement, etc, are all skills we spend a lot of time on.

Brian will pull drills from many different sports to help the athletes with these skill sets.
10/1/08 3:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ams
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 932
But I guess your athlethes trains other aspects of striking for mma such as knees, kicks etc as well?
10/1/08 10:24 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matt Thornton
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3795
Knees are worked a lot. We don't spend much time on kicks by comparison, for various reasons.
10/2/08 10:07 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Hoffa
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/17/00
Posts: 334
Do you still use the CM hand position & stance? With your talk about movement, it would appear that you have added more head movement & lively footwork than is found in the CM framework. (Note: I have absolutely no hidden agenda to try & turn this into a Rodney King v. SBG..just trying to make my game better becuase you all have spent far more time -and correctly at that- using CM than I).

As an aside, what SBG DVD -if any- would you reccomend which has some of Brian's methods in it? I already own all of SBG series volume 1 & 2 (and have watched them more than anything else I own... great stuff).
10/2/08 2:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matt Thornton
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3797
"Do you still use the CM hand position & stance?"

On occasion though it's been greatly modified and built on by Karl Tanswell. Regards Brian, he recentley started shooting an instructional set. I'll post details about it when I find out more.
10/2/08 3:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Hoffa
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/17/00
Posts: 335
Thanks, Matt. I'll keep an eye out for the set.
10/14/08 3:50 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jorx
6 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 10/14/08 3:57 AM
Member Since: 6/3/04
Posts: 2922
Just to give out an example - when we started out our standup was all CM based.

Now it is 50-50 for beginners course and about 20 CM 80 modified other boxing stances for the advanced.

I personally still believe that CM (we call it "aggressive shelling" sometimes) is VERY beneficial at times BUT it is IMO a strategic option... a tactical solution to certain situations not as much a delivery system on itself as we used to think a few years back.

It is a good tool to get people started with boxing esp. if you want to give a MMA for self-defence feel at the beginning... But other options and strategies need to be addressed immediately as well otherwise people will get "stuck" too much on the CM and don't develop the footwork and aggressiveness that is needed for effective standup.

I am not saying CM does not include or Rodney does not advocate aggressiveness and footwork - I am just saying that as a coach, my personal experience is that IF taught to the beginners they will quickly pick up the defensive and passive qualities which is a GOOD thing BUT they develop better punching, footwork and tactics through other options and AFTER that is developed to a certain level then people will start to reintegrate CM / aggressive shelling into their dynamic game.
10/20/08 11:45 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jonpall
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11172
Matt, why did you guys quit teaching CM and did you just choose plain ol' boxing instead?
10/20/08 11:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matt Thornton
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3805
Only one reason Jon, we use what works best for our athletes. That is the business we are in. Having a boxing coach with a lifetime of experience working in the actual sport is invaluable to our team. And boxing is the core delivery system of stand up for us. It always has been.
10/21/08 9:05 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jonpall
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11185
Makes sense, Matt. Thanks. I've also always been a big believer in boxing as a great fundamental for MMA and self defence. Boxing could actually get my vote for the best self defence art/sport there is. Especially when coupled with BJJ.
10/26/08 9:17 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
tudor
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/10/05
Posts: 438
Matt, did your boxing coach modified his approach to MMA or he is just teaching "straight" boxing and you modify them "afterwards"?
10/28/08 2:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Christian Montes
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 10/28/08 2:44 PM
Member Since: 7/28/02
Posts: 1326
Ronin Athletics, Owner/Head Coach
jonpall - ... Boxing could actually get my vote for the best self defence art/sport there is. Especially when coupled with BJJ.


hmm ... I would argue Boxing, coupled with Folk-style wrestling (learning upperbody ties + shots + defense), especially if when we think of modern BJJ, we're thinking of tournament-style BJJ.

Most of the real fights i've seen lately have very rarely gone to the ground, either the environment or perimeter wouldn't allow it (crowded club or bar) or the time was a factor, but they almost ALWAYS end up in the clinch ... to be fair though, its usually broken up by a rush of mean bouncers before it ever hits the ground.

also - sorry for hijacking this thread :)
10/29/08 2:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matt Thornton
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3807
Our team coach Brain Walsh modifies it straight off the bat, in that sprawls, the clinch, attached hitting, dealing with the cage, dealing with kicks, and a lot of things that just don't arise in regular boxing are worked into the drills. But the core delivery system, the footwork, body mechanics, and tools, all remian the same of course.

www.straightblastgym.com
10/31/08 9:38 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kai Tremeche
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/6/00
Posts: 20739
Thanks for the straight answers Matt, I was wondering about this myself.
12/18/08 10:28 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Hoffa
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/17/00
Posts: 338
Jorx I know that it has been while since this thread was posted, but I just got the opportunity to read your comments, and I appreciate the insight. Since I posted, I found the comments about "CM as a strategic option" to be true: it works well with an agressive headhunter, but not so well with the boxer who uses lively footwork and mixes targets up. I've found that punching at angles, and keeping the pressure on works well with those types.
12/20/08 6:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jorx
6 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/3/04
Posts: 3150
I personally (short guy) still use shelling as defence... I keep my hands in "orthodox" boxing posture but if tall guys start to fire from long distance I cover up CM style for a moment and hit back...
12/29/08 3:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cprevost
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/28/03
Posts: 387
I still like the CM as part of a self defense curriculum. If I was putting together a short term self defense course I'd include it. I agree that maybe it's tactical and not something you'd build a delivery system on. It's still a go to for me when I get overwhelmed in boxing range.
12/31/08 4:25 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jorx
6 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/3/04
Posts: 3169
cprevost - that's semantics but "go to when overwhelmed" is EXACTLY what I meant - you make a tactical choice in a certain situation.

P.S. Rampage:)
6/23/09 7:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Baki
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 630
Super cool post, I just found it.

I've also just returned to practising my striking, and have been wondering about this myself. At my club, we have a good thai program, but while away from striking, I really started to look at boxing and CM as alternatives for striking strategies (I have short legs, and often find boxing with knees and elbows is generally more effective for me than full thai).

I liked the CM, but wondered if some more savy footwork from boxing (modified of course) helps open up some other options? Of course it would need to be modified for a different environment (cage, knees, etc..), but boxing seems to be making a good showing lately, and I really like what's coming about with boxing.

What have you guys been focussing, or re-focussing, your boxing on?

Baki

PS. Boxing with Folkstyle wrestling (specifically) would be a GREAT combination.
6/26/09 9:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SidRon
19 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/5/06
Posts: 402
Matt, I was curious what some of the reasons that you do not emphasize kicking. I have the same opinion for the following personal reasons.

-I can keep a lower center of gravity when not kicking
-My movement is better and fluid when not kicking
-I can execute/defend takedowns better when not kicking
-I can create better offensive pressure with agressive punching and footwork than with kicking

Of course this could all be becasue I don't practice kicking so who knows.
6/27/09 4:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Baki
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 632
I have personally always agreed with this policy (I was the only one saying it in my striking classes years ago).

Essentially, I've always maintained that kicking was the last of the weapons to learn, and that Boxing with a Thai Clinch was the way to go.

Essentially, those skills had always seemed to be the most transferable between sport training, and self-defence. Whereas kicking seems to be very ring or combat-sport specific. A good strategy in a ring, but in the street (with different surfaces, footwear, environments) seems to be the opposite (ie. a strategy based on the kicking, or at least heavily relaying on it).

Also, with the way that boxing and its footwork is being incorporated into MMA in a good way, it seems that using the footwork is a better control of distance and mobility.

I have recently been enlightened a bit on the good use of a Teep (front kick), and some Savate kicks (the rear leg Bruce-Lee-esque stomp to the shin) as good kicking to include in your arsenal. But as far as overall strategy.....boxing with thai-clinching techniques.

My .02 to add to the discussion....

Baki
6/27/09 5:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Matt Thornton
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 4024
You guys are all sighting the same valid reasons we have. Primarily it is due to mobility, we want our fighters to angle prior to hitting, and angle off after every combo. Injury prevention is another reason.

www.straightblastgym.com

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.