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Weapons UnderGround >> does a realistic gun defense exist?

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10/1/08 8:11 PM
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passion4ma
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I have haerd that systema's are good. I think somebody told me that the dog brothers "Die Less Often" dvds show some good gun defenses. Are there any others? Thanks in advance.
10/1/08 10:00 PM
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ViewType
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Watch systema's on youtube. Then tell me if you think they are good.
1/15/09 2:26 AM
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Skpotamus
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From my experiences in training:

Some of krav maga's stuff CAN work. However, when you pad up and put on airsoft.... unless the person has the gun pretty close, you're probably going to get shot.

The mindset of the person holding the gun seems to have the most influence on the outcome. If you have someone willing to shoot they are standing six feet away or more (measured from feet to feet NOT from extended arms), you're probably going to get shot. If they're closer, you have a much better chance, but it's still not great.

If the person doesn't want to actually shoot you, you have a pretty good chance of getting the gun away before getting shot.

All in all, you'd be better off giving a mugger your wallet instead of trying to get their gun.
1/21/09 7:55 PM
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BiggyBear
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ttt
2/4/09 6:35 PM
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TacFighter
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get a bigger gun and shoot first..
2/4/09 10:53 PM
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RaginRedneck169
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TacFighter - get a bigger gun and shoot first..


this.
3/9/09 4:18 AM
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laqueus
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I think a $1000+ bullet proof (resistant?) vest will serve you better against guns than $1000 worth of classes. When I was clubbing I started researching that, then decided maybe I should just stay away from clubs where people get shot. I can't think of anyone honest who would advocate learning gun defense before getting armour (unless you're in a state that has it banned, like Florida?)
3/21/09 3:37 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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People are training the wrong thing wrt gun defenses. They should be training deployment and deployment prevention and grip fighting, standing (wall fighting) and in alternate mount and guard.
4/8/09 1:44 AM
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Buddhadev
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Edited: 04/08/09 1:44 AM
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laqueus - When I was clubbing I started researching that, then decided maybe I should just stay away from clubs where people get shot.


+1

Best gun defense EVAR.
4/8/09 2:41 PM
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yusul
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jim west had 1 that apparently was pretty good. he was doing disarms with a gun loaded with plastic bullets.

there was one on here or the jkd forum, i think it was straight blast gym, it was called 'stab' or something like that.


if it's martial art based, i'm sure some of the kali could be adapted.
4/17/09 7:51 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 04/17/09 7:57 PM
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IMO, "practicing" gun disarms is a complete waste of time. Much better things to be doing.

1. Research guns and learn about their characteristics, and be able to visually ID them, and operate them so if you're confronted, know what gun is deployed, the number of rounds in the clip, when it's on safety or not, etc.;
2. Learn to recognize when someone is carrying, when they 'print', and where the gun is and what type;
3. Obviously, stay away from places where rough people have guns, and learn how to escape and evade before you're a target. Don't walk where you can be surprised (such as too close to the wall coming up on an alley);
4. Carry your own gun and research how quickly and from what positions you can best deploy.
5. If you must train this stuff and are going to be in such situations, invest in body armor.
6. ...and so on.
If you end up in a situation where you have to do 'gun disarms' you've already lost several battles on the way to that point.  In addition, if you have anyone around you, friend, famiy, it's too risky to be swatting a gun away, b/c you can get them shot.

$.02

PS, this is just one of a number of areas where "martial arts instructors" have tricked students or duped themselves into teaching or training stupid things in stupid situations. I mean if you're doing  your RBSD as a game or entertainment, like paintball, go ahead. But otherwise, you could be training other stuff.

  
5/8/09 5:44 AM
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Buddhadev
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Widespread Panic:

AWESOME post.
5/8/09 12:02 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Buddahdev, I once had a training partner who was really into gun collecting. He mentioned to me that there were quite a large number of people in this town carrying handguns. I was surprised, and asked how he knew. He talked about easily being able to spot people carrying when they 'printed', usually by bending or stretching and showing a bulge under their shirt or jacket. He also said he could tell by the clothing they wore and their demeanor and other subtle cues.

This lead me to believe that it is a skill that one can acquire. Now, most of the time people with a CCW are law-abiding and have a permit, but this would still be an important skill to have if one was concerned about weapons and defense. For one thing, with such knowledge, one could take steps to insure they didn't 'print' themselves.

Other parts of my thoughts on the matter have come about when I had a sudden epiphany about just what one could reasonably train with regard to weapons, what could be trained with resistance and with a degree of 'aliveness'.

It occurred to me that grip fighting, trying to prevent deployment, (being aware of who was carrying), "wall fighting" once a grip had  been obtained were all things one could train as part of grappling. Now, just like 'starting in guard', one could initiate grappling with weapons the same way, but starting from a certain 'point', i.e. when one had both hands on the weapons arm and a degree of control. Then you 'go'.

Some might criticize this by saying you're skipping the part where you get the grip, but the point is, getting wrist control is -always- going to be an iffy part of the equation, but IF YOU DO get the grip you want to have a robust array of strategies and reflexes. I'd dare say that 99% of the people who practice gun defense, though slightly talented at disarms, are COMPLETELY at sea once they get wrist control under conditions of stress and unrehearsed grappling. They simply have omitted practicing it. My thought was why omit this part and ASSUME you got a successful disarm. In fact, I'd say 90% of the time when you are at close quarters with weapons vs unarmed, you are in a grip fighting, wrist control situation. If one had mad skills here from practicing with a partner under a fair amount of aliveness, learned -when- to do what, and when they had enough control to deploy their own weapon that they'd be very much ahead of the game.

You can practice these alive wrist control with weapons and grip fighting in guard, mount, against the wall, and other position. You just start from the point where the defender has enough control to make it workable.

Obviously, if you start with only one hand on the gun hand, the attacker can quickly strip your grip and the session is over. So there's little benefit there. (However, after practicing for a while, even this could be improved).

Anyway, sorry for the long diatribe. Now you see why I say most people playing weapons vs empty hand are practicing the wrong things and omittin important things.

5/8/09 12:09 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Just to add, the beauty of this is you can just use your pre-existing BJJ skill, and a rubber gun or rubber knife. No need for expensive sim-munitions, or electric knives. IMO, trying to 'spar' someone with a knife is ridiculous. If you -happen- to close and get the grip (or if you use Marc Denny's "dog catcher defense") then your skills, derived from my 'weapons grappling' practice, can immediately come into play. We all know that with even a modest amount of 'aliveness' skills are authentic and improve rapidly since feedback is robust.



5/9/09 5:41 AM
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laqueus
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Rubber gun is a horrible idea. You can develop a habit of grabbing behind the gun instead of on it when trying to control it - that can get you seriously hurt with the way some guns work. Training gun defense unless you're trained in shooting it will work as well as TMAs training takedown defense when they don't know how to do a takedown properly.
5/11/09 3:47 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 05/11/09 3:53 PM
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laqueus - Rubber gun is a horrible idea. You can develop a habit of grabbing behind the gun instead of on it when trying to control it - that can get you seriously hurt with the way some guns work. Training gun defense unless you're trained in shooting it will work as well as TMAs training takedown defense when they don't know how to do a takedown properly.
Yes, where to grab the (various types of) gun is important. Don't develop bad habits. Also, yes, learn to shoot.

Every step should be broken down into three parts. Train part one until you're precise and effective, then train part two, same thing, then part three, then recombine.

Sometimes, you, on the bottom have the gun and are trying to shoot while your opponent prevents. Vary resistance and position until you're very familiar with the body feel and timing. Remember, same principles apply. Position before submission (or disarm). If you try to disarm too soon, or try to turn the gun back on the opponent too quickly before positional control is established, you invite a scramble, which you do not want.
  
I can not tell you everything. I can only give you idea. Experiment. Learn what is the wrong way, right way, bait opponent, and use sound grappling/bjj principles. If you want to advance to using guns firing simmunition, maybe so. My point is that it's not necessary to have fancy props to learn good gun deployment, anti-deployment and grappling principles. Just like in BJJ training start from various positions and -then- start to grapple. Rarely, if ever need to start from the one-foot away disengaged position. Start when one person has two-handed grip on your weapon and fight it out in the beginning. Fight to prevent deployment if you know where the gun is. Learn to tell where opponent is packing, and so forth.
  
Learn to be able to deploy when opponent is trying to prevent you. (It's harder than it looks, and very easy to have the gun stripped). You can even vary the weaponry. You have gun, he has (sheathed) knife. Grappling starts. You learn a lot more like this than by studying ten different standing disarms, which are mostly worthless.

9/8/09 4:49 AM
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supersaiyan
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9/8/09 1:09 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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One thing to add. Look up shooting statistics. I think you'll find a very small percentage of people actually get shot/wounded even from very close distances, something in the 20% range. So...if you can't defend or disarm, it's best to try to distract the shooter and make a getaway to cover. If you're with friends or family, obviously, you can't easily make an escape. It depends a lot on the motive and whether the shooter is looking for hostages or to actually kill.

Avoid getting into a car with someone though, at all costs. Better to get away and summon help. If driving, always remember to lock all doors to foil car jackers. Prevention, awareness and avoiding bad areas is key, not some 'iffy' gun disarm which you can't practice 10x per day every day to keep your skills up. Reflexes degrade, use brains, instead. :)


6/26/10 12:07 PM
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pierrot lunaire
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How about those TRS Hapkido guys who advocate the "inside clear"? Anyone have anything positive or negative to say about that?
10/2/10 2:03 PM
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supersaiyan
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yes there are gun defenses.... the real question is and should be

"is there a bullet defense" ?
10/7/10 8:47 AM
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Dark Knight
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WidespreadPanic - 1. Research guns and learn about their characteristics, and be able to visually ID them, and operate them so if you're confronted, know what gun is deployed, the number of rounds in the clip, when it's on safety or not, etc.;
2. Learn to recognize when someone is carrying, when they 'print', and where the gun is and what type;
  


I carry a gun, and I see when others are. look at your fighting experience, when you are fighting someone you have a good feel for when they are going to punch you. Because you develop skills on when to strike you rcognize when you will be hit.

Same with the gun, once you understand how a gun is carried and how people carry them you can spot them easier. I have been in book stores and can see when people are reaching for books they change hands or stance so the gun will not show. If its on your right hip under an untucked shirt, you reach with your left so you dont expose it, or adjust your cloths.

point is, learn the signs.
10/8/10 4:55 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Dark Knight - 
WidespreadPanic - 1. Research guns and learn about their characteristics, and be able to visually ID them, and operate them so if you're confronted, know what gun is deployed, the number of rounds in the clip, when it's on safety or not, etc.;
2. Learn to recognize when someone is carrying, when they 'print', and where the gun is and what type;  
I carry a gun, and I see when others are. look at your fighting experience, when you are fighting someone you have a good feel for when they are going to punch you. Because you develop skills on when to strike you rcognize when you will be hit.

Same with the gun, once you understand how a gun is carried and how people carry them you can spot them easier. I
...
point is, learn the signs.
 Great post.
It's called 'Reality Hacking' and is an excellent way to get various points of view on weapons and SD.

Break it down, see what works, train what you can acquire 100% not some theoretical mumbo-jumbo. Anyone who has fine motor control when looking down the barrel of a .45 deserves to try out some 'disarms'. <grin>
10/11/10 12:15 PM
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Willybone
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My old TKD teacher did something awesome in a test once.
He was testing a kid for his red belt and made him go through all the one-step knife defense, where an attacker does the unrealistic, obvious stab motion. After the kid did great on all of those, the teacher grabbed a rubber gun, stood back, and said, "OK, I'm the mugger. 'Gimme your wallet!' What do you do?"
The kid did a crescent kick at the gun. "No, do it again."
The kid did a drop and sweep. "Wrong. One more time."
The kid started to lunge and- "No! Wrong! Stop."
He turned to all the other students. "I asked for his wallet. If someone is willing to hurt or kill you for your wallet, give it to them. It's just money."
I loved that guy.

10/12/10 10:36 AM
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Rhymenoceros
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laqueus - Rubber gun is a horrible idea. You can develop a habit of grabbing behind the gun instead of on it when trying to control it - that can get you seriously hurt with the way some guns work. Training gun defense unless you're trained in shooting it will work as well as TMAs training takedown defense when they don't know how to do a takedown properly.


I'd love to know where on a handgun you shouldn't grab.

(please say don't grab the slide... please say don't grab the slide...)
10/14/10 3:34 PM
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e. kaye
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Edited: 11/12/10 10:21 AM
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 Any time  a weapon is involved the outcome is a crapshoot.

If the attacker is close enough to touch and you beleive you will be shot, there are things that can be done.

If the attacker is out of contact range, you have a problem.   Sorry. 

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