UnderGround Forums
 

Weapons UnderGround >> does a realistic gun defense exist?


11/12/10 5:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jcblass
35 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/8/02
Posts: 2242
I wonder what the statistics are on gun vs. knife violence. Even trained police officers have a tough time hitting targets in close range situations. A knife on the other hand seems way more troublesome. A child wielding a knife can do a great amount of damage where as a trained police officer with firearms training rarely hits his targets in CQB situation.
11/12/10 9:55 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
supersaiyan
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/20/02
Posts: 29068
e. kaye -  Any time  a weapon is involved the outcome is a crapshoot.

If the attacker is close enough to touch and you beleive you will be shot, there things that can be done.

If the attacker is out of contact range, you have a problem.   Sorry.



end of thread
11/13/10 12:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ironmongoose
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/17/02
Posts: 7644
Willybone - My old TKD teacher did something awesome in a test once.
He was testing a kid for his red belt and made him go through all the one-step knife defense, where an attacker does the unrealistic, obvious stab motion. After the kid did great on all of those, the teacher grabbed a rubber gun, stood back, and said, "OK, I'm the mugger. 'Gimme your wallet!' What do you do?"
The kid did a crescent kick at the gun. "No, do it again."
The kid did a drop and sweep. "Wrong. One more time."
The kid started to lunge and- "No! Wrong! Stop."
He turned to all the other students. "I asked for his wallet. If someone is willing to hurt or kill you for your wallet, give it to them. It's just money."
I loved that guy.
<br type="_moz" />

Good SD courses now have people DRILL handing over valuables to an armed assailant so that it becomes automatic under stress... just like they want the awareness and combatives stuff to become automatic.
11/13/10 12:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ironmongoose
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/17/02
Posts: 7645
passion4ma - I have haerd that systema's are good. I think somebody told me that the dog brothers "Die Less Often" dvds show some good gun defenses. Are there any others? Thanks in advance.

I am not aware that DLO did a vid on gun disarms. DLO1 was empty hand against knife, DLO2, mainly gun against knife. DLO3 was in-depth on the kali fence and looks to be empty-hand against empty-hand.

Kelly McCann had a fairly solid video on weapon disarming.
11/13/10 12:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ironmongoose
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/17/02
Posts: 7646
Widespread, loved your post. Wonder what you think of this infographic that's been going around the internet...

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/images/handgun_spotting.jpg
2/9/12 3:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FJJ828
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3718
 You are so much behind the power curve if you are facing an armed attacker it's not even funny. I laugh when I see people in strip mall TKD schools practicing rubber gun takeaways being taught by someone who has most likely rarely if ever handled a real gun. Then they make it "authentic" by practicing pretending to rack the slide after the takeaway. Hardcore.

We have a Counter Firearms component in the ISR Matrix that is restricted to LE/ MIL that we have pressure tested full contact in every conceivable position we could come up with but the relaity is that it is your ass on the line. The comment about the wallet in the previous post was dead on.

You are not a rodeo clown and you don't get stuntman pay to do things more dangerously.
2/9/12 4:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ironmongoose
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/17/02
Posts: 8807
FJJ828 -  You are so much behind the power curve if you are facing an armed attacker it's not even funny. I laugh when I see people in strip mall TKD schools practicing rubber gun takeaways being taught by someone who has most likely rarely if ever handled a real gun. Then they make it "authentic" by practicing pretending to rack the slide after the takeaway. Hardcore.

We have a Counter Firearms component in the ISR Matrix that is restricted to LE/ MIL that we have pressure tested full contact in every conceivable position we could come up with but the relaity is that it is your ass on the line. The comment about the wallet in the previous post was dead on.

You are not a rodeo clown and you don't get stuntman pay to do things more dangerously.

*sadly*: I just spent thirty bucks on rubber guns at Hatashita... and then cut off the trigger guards and everything...

Obviously people should train to quickly hand over their valuables, but to think think that this is the be-all and end-all is to assume that everyone who has a gun just wants your valuables.

Which is not true.

2/15/12 1:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ironmongoose
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/17/02
Posts: 8829
Incidentally, really easy for LEOs to say "hey, we're only ever going to teach this material to each other--officer safety comes first".

Well bully for you, officer.

When some civilian HAS to disarm a guy with a gun to protect himself or his family, he, no less than you, is going to want to have had the most solid training he could get.
2/15/12 1:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 787
i'm actually in the process of writing a book covering some of this, but here are a few things to think about...

use threat analysis to figure out what to do.... a handgun is most likely going to be used in a crime, such as a mugging. now you can defeat a gun mechanically (revolver-block firing pin, auto-stop slide, drop magazine, etc), but these are nearly impossible to do for real, and it also requires you to grab the gun and assuming the bad guy will just wait for it.

you can possibly defeat a bullet with body armor, but most people will only wear a vest, and that doesn't protect everything.

so i'd apprach the marksmanship of the bad guy.... distance is your friend-run! distraction/divided attention works...throw your wallet/purse one way and run the other. also, pepper spray might work, to spray behind you as you run-practice this first, though.


don't bet on the intention of the gunman...all of my adult life has involved carrying a gun, and if i point my gun at someone, it's solely to kill them if they don't choose the wiser option. don't think a criminal will be nicer than me...

if you have a gun touching you (someone mugging you from behind and puts the muzzle on you), then you could possibly disarm them, but then gun defense needs to be your sole training goal for a really long time. 10,000 reps to master it....it's prolly easier to get really fast.

also, avoid the "stupids"...stupid people (hothead friends, thug bars), stupid places (high crime areas, gang hangouts), stupid times (bar closing times, for one)...



btw, good discussion here...
2/15/12 1:27 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 788
jcblass - I wonder what the statistics are on gun vs. knife violence. Even trained police officers have a tough time hitting targets in close range situations. A knife on the other hand seems way more troublesome. A child wielding a knife can do a great amount of damage where as a trained police officer with firearms training rarely hits his targets in CQB situation.


i don't have than info available, but generally knife attacks are not as likely to be fatal as gunshots.

that being said, knives are vastly underrated...how many times do the police shoot some jackass with a knife, and people say "why didn't they shoot him in the leg?"

again, with a knife, distance is your friend, even if you got a gun. unless you're Dan Inosanto, assume that the guy with the knife is more experienced with it than you are, so avoid the disarm unless it's the only option available.
2/15/12 3:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ironmongoose
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/17/02
Posts: 8832
BshMstr - i'm actually in the process of writing a book covering some of this, but here are a few things to think about...

use threat analysis to figure out what to do.... a handgun is most likely going to be used in a crime, such as a mugging. now you can defeat a gun mechanically (revolver-block firing pin, auto-stop slide, drop magazine, etc), but these are nearly impossible to do for real, and it also requires you to grab the gun and assuming the bad guy will just wait for it.

you can possibly defeat a bullet with body armor, but most people will only wear a vest, and that doesn't protect everything.

so i'd apprach the marksmanship of the bad guy.... distance is your friend-run! distraction/divided attention works...throw your wallet/purse one way and run the other. also, pepper spray might work, to spray behind you as you run-practice this first, though.


don't bet on the intention of the gunman...all of my adult life has involved carrying a gun, and if i point my gun at someone, it's solely to kill them if they don't choose the wiser option. don't think a criminal will be nicer than me...

if you have a gun touching you (someone mugging you from behind and puts the muzzle on you), then you could possibly disarm them, but then gun defense needs to be your sole training goal for a really long time. 10,000 reps to master it....it's prolly easier to get really fast.

also, avoid the "stupids"...stupid people (hothead friends, thug bars), stupid places (high crime areas, gang hangouts), stupid times (bar closing times, for one)...

btw, good discussion here...

If tossing the guy your wallet and running far, far away would have resolved things, then everyone would have done that in the first place, and threads like this needn't exist.

The whole assumption with gun defence is that you CAN'T (child, elderly, or person with limited mobility present, confined spaces, etc.)

As for mechanically stopping the gun's operation, not only is it a lot harder to do than good disarms, but well, sometimes you CAN'T mechanically stop a gun from firing. For instance, when you hold the slide, the gun still shoots. It probably just prevents the shell casing from being ejected. Great, now the gun is maybe not operational for the amount of time it takes for him to regain control of it and rack the slide. Which is surely a good thing, but all the basics (redirecting muzzle, control of the barrel and weapon hand or wrist, etc.) is still necessary.
2/15/12 10:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 790
some guns don't shot with the slide jammed back (like all automatics)... like i said, not a high percentage way to win the fight. however, simply slamming into someone and pushng backing the slide IS eaier than a "good disarm." weapons disarms are an extremely low percentage technique... more importantly, distracting the attacker is far more effective. i've dealt with many robbery victims who gave up money and ran, and a few that fight and died. throwing a wallet 15 feet and quickly walking away is still reasonable for an elderly or disabled victim....most offenders simply want the cash anyway.

it's nice to think we can all fight of any attacked with a weapon, but it's prolly easier to avoid bad spots, and if need be, flee.
2/15/12 10:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 791
ironmongoose - Incidentally, really easy for LEOs to say "hey, we're only ever going to teach this material to each other--officer safety comes first".

Well bully for you, officer.

When some civilian HAS to disarm a guy with a gun to protect himself or his family, he, no less than you, is going to want to have had the most solid training he could get.


okay, here's the deal...most LEO's are NOT taught handgun disarms. for me to move off-line, draw and shoot, is far more high percentage than trying to close, lock down on a weapon, and remove it.

if you wanna defeat a weapon, than carry a level beyond it.


2/16/12 12:31 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ironmongoose
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/17/02
Posts: 8834
BshMstr - 
ironmongoose - Incidentally, really easy for LEOs to say "hey, we're only ever going to teach this material to each other--officer safety comes first".

Well bully for you, officer.

When some civilian HAS to disarm a guy with a gun to protect himself or his family, he, no less than you, is going to want to have had the most solid training he could get.


okay, here's the deal...most LEO's are NOT taught handgun disarms. for me to move off-line, draw and shoot, is far more high percentage than trying to close, lock down on a weapon, and remove it.

if you wanna defeat a weapon, than carry a level beyond it.

I was writing that specifically in response to what FJJ said.
2/16/12 1:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 800
yeah, i get that. and he said to hand over your wallet.


you don't seem to have a lot of solutions, but are very critical of those with suggestions. this is my life, and i'm still here, so i think i know what i'm talking about.
2/16/12 12:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 802
BshMstr - yeah, i get that. and he said to hand over your wallet.


you don't seem to have a lot of solutions, but are very critical of those with suggestions. this is my life, and i'm still here, so i think i know what i'm talking about.


sorry, this was not a helpful post at all. sometimes i'm a dick about this stuff.....




i thought some more about this a few minutes ago, and think i can explain better the point i'm trying to make....

in law enforcement, we do handgun/weapon retention drills. generally speaking, it is damn hard to take someone's gun from a holster, unless you've KO'd them or something already. i've done a lot of drills on this, both with Redguns and sim-guns (drawn and holstered), and even if someone is able to get a grip on my gun, i have always still been able to get a shot off on them, and it's generally to the chest/abdomen.

now i suspect the Secret Service and other dignitary organizations have some solid techniques on disarms, but i think there are a couple points to be made. 1) they are trained to pile up on the suspect, with a bunch of well trained, vigilant agents. 2) they're wearing body armor and have guns 3)they have access to immediate tactical medical care that regular people do not have, in case it goes bad.

i had read a while back that the akido wrist grab defense, is based of feudal times when someone is trying to prevent you from drawing your sword. i talked to one of our Defensive Tactics instructors about that at work (who also happens to be an akido practitioner), and he said that we could theorectially train that at the PD, but that was waayyy more complicated than our current training, and at a higher percentage to fail, or have worse results if it did fail.

i think that there are a few techniques out there that could work, but if this is really a big concern for someone, think they need to look at their lifestyle, and whether they need to carry their own gun or not.

hope this explains where i'm coming from a little better...
3/1/12 10:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FJJ828
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3755
BshMstr,

I am glad that yout Aikido guy recognizes where art for art's sake does not neccesarily translate to function even when it is Martial Arts. Most Police DT begins with Traditional MA roots and left unchecked, can go down a crazy road and have cops doing beeing fed some pretty goofy techniques that they will discard out of the academy as something that will "get them killed".

We all have to start somewhere but thankfully, there are forward thinking programs out there.
3/3/12 12:21 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 862
FJJ828 - BshMstr,

I am glad that yout Aikido guy recognizes where art for art's sake does not neccesarily translate to function even when it is Martial Arts. Most Police DT begins with Traditional MA roots and left unchecked, can go down a crazy road and have cops doing beeing fed some pretty goofy techniques that they will discard out of the academy as something that will "get them killed".

We all have to start somewhere but thankfully, there are forward thinking programs out there.


yeah, me too.

i'm a big guy, but he dwarfs me, so it's nice to see that we train based off realsim...
3/3/12 12:23 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/03/12 12:23 AM
Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 863
if i didn't make it clear, what i mean is, what he can do, i can't necessarily do, and i'm a lot bigger/athletic than the average person. this should be the key for any self-defense system, IMO....
3/20/12 5:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Siciliano
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/2/04
Posts: 995
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0u186Hd2yQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5_bzx0MXbU
4/1/12 1:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
HULC
67 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3827
Interesting discussion. Does anyone have any ideas on how to spot if someone is carrying a concealed weapon?
4/2/12 11:49 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BshMstr
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/13/09
Posts: 908
i thought there was a thread about spotting a weapon around here somewhere...

anyway, i read an article a while back that has some good info, now i just gotta find it.


a couple things off the top of my head..

-watch how uniformed cops stand. they tend to touch their weapons, even if it's just bringing their elbow in. other people do this, and people worry about the gun shifting, losing, etc...

-inappropriate clothing for the weather....heavy/jacket sweathsirt in summer, etc

-people tend to turn their side away from people...i suppose partially to conceal it, and subconciously over the concern of the weapon.


Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.