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PetGround >> Koehler Method


10/4/08 12:35 AM
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smileythai
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Pretty good clip of basic obedience that I found on a whim.
10/4/08 9:21 AM
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MikeD
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I like the vid. Makes me realize a need a visual cue for the down.

What about it is from the Koehler method?
10/4/08 9:36 AM
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smileythai
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MikeD -  What about it is from the Koehler method?
Everything from start to finish.  ;o)
 
10/6/08 11:06 AM
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MikeZev
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 i could get through that with my pup but she doesnt heel as well. wont keep her head to the seam of my pants.
10/6/08 11:42 AM
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MikeD
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Same here Mike.
10/7/08 2:15 AM
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smileythai
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MikeZev -  i could get through that with my pup but she doesnt heel as well. wont keep her head to the seam of my pants.

Why not? Your dog will respond to the level of attentiveness/discipline you demand of it. You slack off, it slacks off.

More practice, imo.

10/7/08 9:30 AM
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MikeD
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Okay, but what specifically to practice. Don't just tell "you suck, you're not doing it right." Tell me exactly what I should be doing.
10/7/08 9:45 AM
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smileythai
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Okay. You suck, you're not doing it right.

 Anything else?





I kid, I kid... j/k  lol




Where/When are you noticing problems?
10/7/08 9:50 AM
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MikeD
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We just introduced the heel about two weeks ago in the class I'm in. He thinks it means sit at my left side and don't move until I say otherwise. I'm having trouble getting him to move with it consistently.
10/7/08 9:51 AM
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smileythai
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How do you start? 

11/13/08 3:51 PM
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Dmclat
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Just got my "Koehler Method of Dog Training" book

20 Pages in, very interesting stuff.

I will have some questions for Mr. Thai very soon.

First off, My dog is fairly obidient(sp?)walks with me and listens well. I want to get her to be more attentive so I feel as if the non-verbal training will be very beneficial.

Would you recommend starting this training on a 4 year old dog? I am sure you are going to say yes. I guess I have to read the rest of the book to discuss some topics I have questions on.

This is turning into a pointless post.....I guess I just wanted to say I started reading the book and so far I like the approach.
11/13/08 5:01 PM
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MikeD
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I got my copy yesterday. I'm only about ten pages in so far, so I can't really comment, other than to say it don't think I'll like his writing style.
11/13/08 10:38 PM
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smileythai
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Edited: 11/13/08 11:05 PM
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Dmclat, 

Yes, it's recommended for every dog regardless of age, breed or size.

Your dog is obedient, except when it's charging people and/or tempted by other distractions, right?

You'll find the lead changes the dynamic since the dog is used to being unconfined on your property. It'll most likely give you the opportunity to see the change to attentiveness immediately. But if not, and the dog just kind of looks at you like, "this lead business is review, buddy!", then you'll have to be more conscientious in finding adequate distractions during training.

An example. One of my training partners has a 2yr old malinois he can more or less title in schutzhund or other dog sport right now. The dog is obedient on and off lead due to previous training. Yet if given half a chance it'll kill his livestock or anyone/anything that stumbles unaware into the dog's grasp(ie: its kennel area).

Willing to help, I suggested he try some Koehler exercises(ie: distractions and the square pattern you'll read about). His mistake was his arrogance in the training he'd already put on his dog(ie: control on lead) instead of facing the problem head on. So he kind of just half-assed the exercises by not challenging his dog via distractions. Rather then tempt the dog with close proximity to his livestock, or me, for example, he chose to do it from a far and/or have the dog wear a muzzle for added safety. Basically, he chose to disregard/sabotage the method by his own failure...ie: arrogance.

Not implying this is true in your case, I'm just saying that whereever your dog is at obedience wise you can still apply Koehler with great success provided you do the work in terms of proper handling(you'll understand the more you read) and providing the dog with adequate distractions during training so the choices it makes can be relied upon...ie: don't take a dog's recall off lead in an empty field(ie: nothing of interest) as a sign of reliable obedience/progress. Because number one, you don't know what will motivate the dog to disobedience, and two, it might just be that YOU are the most interesting thing to the dog at that moment, thus obedience. The dog looking at you through those lenses is not good. lol





MikeD,

Eh, different time, different style. You wouldn't be the first person to dislike it.

For me personally, I find it crisp and rather poetic. 
11/14/08 2:19 AM
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smileythai
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^Okay, 7 minutes worth of forced retrieve?       WTF!?!  
11/14/08 3:02 AM
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NorthFromHere
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^ By coincidence I watched that same vid this morning. Not impressed.
11/14/08 3:33 AM
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smileythai
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The nerdy doctor or rotound woman?


Nerdy doctor = there's words coming out of your mouth, they just don't make any sense.

Rotound woman = good exercise, just don't know why someone would upload 7 painfully repetitive minutes of them performing an exercise. lol

11/14/08 4:37 AM
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NorthFromHere
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I meant that fat lady.
11/24/08 10:33 AM
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MikeD
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What's the point of the forced retrieve? Just an obedience exercise?
11/24/08 10:37 AM
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smileythai
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 Pretty much.
11/27/08 12:50 AM
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smileythai
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Rickson Is God - the forced retrieve has use when it comes to hunting
Technically, yes. But the exercise itself is strictly an obedience demonstration. 


Retrieving for hunting is trained much differently.
 
11/27/08 3:08 AM
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smileythai
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 Surprise, suprise, we disagree...again!  lol
11/27/08 4:57 AM
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smileythai
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That's just it, regardless of those singing the forced retrieve' praises nowadays it remains different from the way in which retrieves have traditionally been trained.

I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with it. Koehler himself contributed a lot to the forced retrieve. But seriously, are you suggesting hunters have always used the backtie and/or placing dogs on tables using complusion to teach the retrieve? lol

I don't care how popular methods become or how many sports people disagree, the send out is instinct and the retrieve is obedience, period.

11/27/08 8:45 AM
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MikeD
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Why is it so hard to find Koehler type videos online?

I watched the one video you embedded earlier in the thread, but that was one of the only ones on YouTube - or at least one of the only ones I could find.

Do they even have any training videos?
11/27/08 9:48 AM
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smileythai
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No Koehler Method instructionals out there as far as I know.




Lots of reasons why there aren't many video clips on youtube being tagged as Koehler Method. Everything from 'old school' trainers and handlers choosing to remain low key(ie: same reason some kennels don't have websites) to cruel kidness(purely positive) being favored by young people who buy into HSUS/PETA propoganda and make up the bulk of the internet community(ie: youtube = mainly inhabited by kids) to Koehler's name just not being familiar to lay people anymore.




11/27/08 3:51 PM
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smileythai
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Rickson Is God - There is a reason that method is known as the "old school" method. Hunters are doing that LESS commonly that they used to. That method is over 100 years old. This has nothing to do with sports at all. This is coming from people who hunt to eat. If you don't want your dinner runied, you teach the hold part of the retrieve with force. Yes I am suggesting that for the last century, bird hunters using retrievers have taught a forced retrieve.
Bullshit! The vast majority of 'hunters' subscribing to the forced retrieve and e-collars are in actuality field trial competitors...read: SPORTS...instead of those who hunt for subsistance. 

Again, there's nothing wrong with the forced retrieve by itself but it's not reflective of hunting no matter how much sports has seeped into it.

But this is an identical argument to protection sports vs. real work. People assume that something being popular makes it the standard of reference, when in actuality nothing could be further then the truth. Same logic applies here to Amish and British style training. I don't know how many competitors and trainers I've heard denegrate the old methods out of ignorance and an instant gratification mindset because their one and only concern is beating every other dog in a trial rather then having a thoroughly trained working dog. They'll talk shit to the hunters who really depend on their dogs who continue to follow the old ways, never having needed an e-collar or a forced retrieve with any dog. The competitors say shit like,  'yeah, you could train without it(collars/forced retrieve) but why would you want to?", and "hunters still train that way but...enter excuse".

The same bullshit lobbed against a certain Canadian kennel in working dog circles. It's laughable. 
 

 

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