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PetGround >> Koehler Method


11/27/08 5:55 PM
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smileythai
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And that proves what? You see cops tugging with K-9's after a bad guy is taken into custody, too. Doesn't mean it belongs there or that everyone trains that way.

But what's this shit about torn up birds and training the retrieve? The controversy is not whether the retrieve is trained but rather how it's trained. You can assert whatever you want but the fact remains, birds made it to the dinner plate in one piece in years past and they still do today. I loathe the e-collar but there's nothing wrong with training the forced retrieve. Just don't know why you're insisting it's the only way the retrieve is trained. Well, I take that back. I know why, I'm just surprised you'd speak in absolutes regarding venues you don't train or compete in. Or are you moonlighting as the next Robert Milner? ;o)

 
11/27/08 6:23 PM
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smileythai
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What is the retrieve other then the dog returning a item to its handler? The dog's instinct is to pursue and kill prey, not it sharing spoils with us.

It's like you sports guys teaching proper grips in schutzhund. Nature ensures the dog knows best how to use its teeth and claws for defense. It's obedience that is unnatural to the dog...ie: performing on command for our benefit.
 

11/28/08 8:49 AM
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smileythai
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lol@ 'seek and destroy'. Yeah, that's what I wrote.  ;o)



To answer the questions, could it perhaps be the result of proper training?


Is a soft mouth exclusive to the forced retrieve? Method of instruction aside, would a dog's mouth remain so soft without the expectation of retirieving in such a way while working, or might it tear into a carcass as the result of hunger or high drive?

Why does a schutzhund dog's front legs often lay flacid on the bite when other 'working' dogs know well how to grip and tear with them?
11/30/08 2:48 AM
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smileythai
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Sure, genetics counts for a lot. But then how do you explain the fact that non-retreiving breeds with hard mouths, like the Airedale and APBT can do it, too? T-r-a-i-n-i-n-g...

But don't play the breed bias card, as I see plenty of flacid Mals in schutzhund as well...even yours! ;o)




11/30/08 3:12 AM
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smileythai
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haha! So I dunno, do we really disagree or are we arguing for shits and giggles?

11/30/08 4:13 AM
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smileythai
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Hate is such an angry word...  lol

I guess for me it has to do with my concerns about control(obedience) and the liability of sports treading where it doesn't belong, both with dogs and martial arts. If people could accept the limitations of their activities we'd all be better off, but they can't do it.

Seen for what they are I take no issue with sports like schutzhund or ring...and even bjj. It's a lot of fun working dogs in predictable situations where you're not worried about fatal injury...ie: face/neck bites after the knockdown. Let people train bitesports for fun, competition, and as a demonstration of obedience just like they do agility and flyball. That's great. It's just like people taking up bjj or muay thai to win a title, stay in shape, or just burn off stress. But you the problem is someone's always trying to say sports are applicable to real world environments for all the wrong reasons. Prey drive? Bark and hold? The full mouth grip? Targeting the non-weaponed hand and/or not retargeting? Stick attacks? Come on! That's like butt-flopping in a streetfight or doing static blocks against a knife or trying to grapple against multiple attackers...it decreases your survivability.

Ah, shit! 

Gotta shut this down before you make me go off on a rant...  lol


/post.

12/1/08 8:36 PM
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MikeD
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I'm still reading the book. There's little spacing and it's not large font, so it's taking a little longer than I thought. Plus, I'm taking notes, highlighting and such, just like it were a textbook. The next chapter I'm starting is on the throw chain.

At this point I don't know what to make of it.
12/1/08 9:18 PM
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smileythai
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lol @ the throw chain chapter. Remember seeing throw chains before I read Koehler, wondering to myself what oddly shaped(and small) choke chains they were....couldn't figure out how the hell you were supposed to slip them over a dog's head as both o-rings are on opposite sides! Then I read Koehler and went, "ooooooooooh!!!", at first, which led to a , "damn, that shit ain't no joke"....  lol

12/2/08 9:15 AM
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MikeZev
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did you get to the part where you shoot your dog with a slingshot?
12/2/08 1:29 PM
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Dmclat
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I just finished koehler's a few days ago... I will re-read and take notes/highlight when/if I am going to start training. I say if because I am not sure If i really have the time (read dedication) to following the method.

I am too still unsure what I think of the book as a whole. Some very good ideas....others I am not sure of (i know smiley maybe i guess i am a little softer than i thought).
12/2/08 2:48 PM
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smileythai
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Rickson Is God - LMFAO @ this coming from the guy who "loathes the ecollar". You make public claims against the ecollar, but recommend this book to noobs. WOW
You're losin' it, bro...
 
12/2/08 5:15 PM
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MikeD
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MikeZev - did you get to the part where you shoot your dog with a slingshot?


Naw man, haven't got to that yet. I bet it's in the upcoming "problems" chapter.

Dmclat - I just finished koehler's a few days ago... I will re-read and take notes/highlight when/if I am going to start training. I say if because I am not sure If i really have the time (read dedication) to following the method.

I am too still unsure what I think of the book as a whole. Some very good ideas....others I am not sure of (i know smiley maybe i guess i am a little softer than i thought).


Pretty much my exact sentiments.
12/4/08 3:29 PM
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Dmclat
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I would really like to follow the book, but my big concern is my girlfriend and the fact that she will not leave my dog in the crate until i get home (which wouild be training time) and she's just not into it so that would confuse the piss out of my dog.

Smiley what do you think....typical "family house-pet" meaning my bro and my g/f want to handle the dog as we do now....would it work if i was the only one training but not the only one handling her?
12/4/08 5:18 PM
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MikeZev
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consistency is really a key part of training a dog. you cant really let your dog get mixed signals about what you expect of it.
12/4/08 7:03 PM
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MikeD
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Finished the book today.

Still not sure if I'm going to follow it or not. I'm not a pussy by any means when it comes to dishing stuff out, but I just really think I could hurt my little dog with some of that stuff - especially if used w/a prong collar. Maybe not though.

Man, there was some crazy stuff at the end. Drowning the dog for digging holes, taping his muzzle shut for destructive chewing, electrocuting him, slingshotting his ass, etc. I was reading this stuff while I had a class and started snickering and they asked what it is I was reading thinking it was a funny book.

Smiley, you got on to me for spanking my dog for trying to pee in the house, but Koehler talks about striking the dog on a couple of occasions. What gives?

If I have some free time I'll probably post the notes I took while reading/studying it.
12/5/08 12:36 AM
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smileythai
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MikeD - Smiley, you got on to me for spanking my dog for trying to pee in the house, but Koehler talks about striking the dog on a couple of occasions. What gives?
It's the difference between errant corrections and last ditch options. You spanking a dog out of frustration because you don't know what else to do is very different from smacking an aggressive dog on the muzzle with a dowel rod to keep it from being euthanized.

You read the book, right? Then you already know this because Koehler explains it with far greater clairity than I ever could. Maybe your fragile nature is affecting your reading comprehension?  ;o)

12/5/08 10:33 AM
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MikeZev
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MikeD, you sensitive bitch, you! lol.
12/5/08 7:29 PM
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MikeD
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smileythai - 
MikeD - Smiley, you got on to me for spanking my dog for trying to pee in the house, but Koehler talks about striking the dog on a couple of occasions. What gives?
It's the difference between errant corrections and last ditch options. You spanking a dog out of frustration because you don't know what else to do is very different from smacking an aggressive dog on the muzzle with a dowel rod to keep it from being euthanized.

You read the book, right? Then you already know this because Koehler explains it with far greater clairity than I ever could. Maybe your fragile nature is affecting your reading comprehension?  ;o)



I'm not buying that. The guy talks about giving chops to the loins for having a sloppy sit and beating the hell out of the dog for whining while alone.

If hear my dog whine in the crate I'm going enclose it in some manner, fill it with water, then just as he's drowning, take it out and berate. I'll continue this for six days or course then she shouldn't want to whine anymore.















Or live with us.
12/6/08 5:39 AM
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smileythai
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It's obvious your fragile nature has logic surrounded at this point so just pick another method that makes you feel warm and fuzzy and get to work already!


Hope everything works out for you.








And I'll keep this thread handy in case you come back asking about the same problems over and over...
12/6/08 8:49 AM
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MikeD
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Edited: 12/06/08 8:49 AM
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Admit it, there isn't much of a difference.
12/6/08 11:03 AM
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smileythai
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Nothing I can do if you refuse to acknowledge the differences.


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