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SBGI >> Go see religulous!


1/1/09 4:29 PM
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robc
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Kai,

I'm not sure that the appeal to ignorance applies here as we are not attempting to prove or disprove on absolute terms the existence or non existence of God. We're in the realm of belief and opinion. The discussion reached a conclusion with each party acknowledging that his belief structure leaves room for the possibility that he might be wrong.

If you can offer an absolute proof to either POV, that would make some interesting reading!

Cheers,

Rob
1/1/09 5:48 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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robc - Kai,

I'm not sure that the appeal to ignorance applies here as we are not attempting to prove or disprove on absolute terms the existence or non existence of God. We're in the realm of belief and opinion. The discussion reached a conclusion with each party acknowledging that his belief structure leaves room for the possibility that he might be wrong.

If you can offer an absolute proof to either POV, that would make some interesting reading!

Cheers,

Rob


It has nothing to do with opinion or the like. When you debate a point, you are bound by trying to make your case logically.

When you you rely on a fallacy as your main point, you have no argument.
1/6/09 3:57 AM
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notabeliever
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Edited: 01/06/09 4:00 AM
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You forgot a few...fallacies, that is....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man - equating the tooth fairy (a childhood myth universally debunked by parents) to questions that remain unknown (e.g., the location of Thor's hammer)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illicit_minor - all religions point to the existence of a deity (or prime mover), all religions are flawed, therefore the concept of a deity (or prime mover) is flawed.
1/6/09 4:14 PM
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Matt Thornton
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 "all religions point to the existence of a deity (or prime mover), all religions are flawed, therefore the concept of a deity (or prime mover) is flawed. "

I have yet to see anyone use that as an argument. Must be reading a different thread. Perhaps the one Thor's hammer is located in.

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1/7/09 12:06 AM
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notabeliever
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Edited: 01/07/09 12:08 AM
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Premise 1 (Religion is flawed): The historical reality is that you can directly blame religious belief (faith) for a whole host of destructive attrocities [from a previous post].

Premise 2 (Critical thinking is not flawed and is blameless): You cannot blame a lack of belief (faith) for anything. Communism is, and certainly was under Stalin a dogma [also a statement from a previous post].

Conclusion (there is no God): A-theism is simply a lack of belief in an imaginary figure [again, a statement from a previous post].

Or is this not an attempt at a logical argument and the statement...

I certainly do hope my grandkids see our culture as a whole as less then rational. After all, a large population of Americans still believe noah took two of every animal on the ark, that mankind is 6000 years old, and that snakes can talk. . .yep, no doubt thats silly. The fact that the above is silly is not a difference of opinion. Its just a fact [from the same post].

..is not based on a series of premises and conclusions but merely the bold assertion that 'Its just a fact.'

Not certain where the critical thinking is there. Maybe in another post or thread.
1/7/09 12:29 AM
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notabeliever
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Fascinating how a group of people who spend hours every day practicing how to bend, fold, spindle and mutilate other human beings in the pursuit of something intangible (e.g., becoming a better person, conquering your fears, some sort of enlightenment, etc.) can have any criticism of the term or practice of 'blind faith.'

There is absolutely no evidence to point to the fact that training in any sort of martial art yields any degree of character development.

The ranks of skilled martial arts practitioners are replete with convicted criminals and individuals who have made their own adverse contributions to society. Not to criticize the practice or sport, but if the intangible was guaranteed then we would never see...http://www.wnct.com/nct/news/crime/article/local_martial_arts_instructor_sentenced_on_indecent_liberties_charges/26571/.

Practicing for the purpose of anything other than learning how to impart or avoid physical violence is not that many steps away from 'blind faith.'

Or is that the only reason to practice?

Or is it just blind faith in another deity? Not Thor but MMA? Not the tooth fairy but Bruce Lee?
1/7/09 2:57 AM
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Matt Thornton
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Odd, your connecting dots to a drawing you created yourself. Those are not the arguments written in the thread.  Lets unpack this:

Is religion responsible for a whole host of atrocities?

Of course it is. I offered the attacks of 9/11 as one example, the atrocties of the Talban would be another low hanging fruit. As would the failure to send condoms to 3rd world nations on grounds that are labeled outright as "religious". We could go on, but the list is almost endless.

Is a lack of belief in something a 'dogma'?

Of course it isnt. I don't believe in astology either. But my lack of belief in astrology does not constitute an anti-astrology dogma. The fact is I am simply not convinced by the "evidence" that astrology is anything other then nonsense. The Koran claims to be the last true testament of the one true god. However, I am quite sure that the vast majority of Christians are not convinced by this statement. And that is of course why they do not convert to Islam. Is that failure to be convinced by the argument of Islam, a dogma? No it is not, it is simply a lack of belief.

Was that reality, the fact that religion is quite often directly responsible for negative things, and the fact that lack of belief is not in and of itself a 'dogma', presented as the 'evidence that there is no 'god'?
No it was not.

So you are simply making things up, confused, and/or reading a different thread. 

Your second post is a bit strange, so you will have to forgive me but I have no idea what you are trying to say there. And regards the opinions of a 'group', these are my opions, not some 'groups'. Everyone else can and should get their own opinions, regardless of "group".

BTW, where are you from?

www.straightblastgym.com

1/7/09 3:00 AM
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notabeliever
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Edited: 01/07/09 3:11 AM
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so no link between the examples and discussion of the destructive nature of superstition (religion), the comparison between believing in a deity and believing in Zeus (or the tooth fairy), the labeling of religious belief as fiction and the lack of need for the term 'atheism.'

just a religion is foolish (destructive, tantamount to believing in Zeus) tome? and a thumbs up for the movie?

ok...

the second post was perhaps a poor attempt to bring attention to the fact that everyone chooses to believe in something that they cannot entirely quantify or prove the overwhelming merit of....and that misplaced belief is in the eye of the observer and an almost purely subjective labeling.

Tom Petty -> you believe what you wanna believe...and everyone does....so what...no need to label it as silly and/or destructive.

From DC (originally).
1/7/09 3:25 AM
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Matt Thornton
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"so no link between the examples and discussion of the destructive nature of superstition (religion), the comparison between believing in a deity and believing in Zeus (or the tooth fairy), the labeling of religious belief as fiction and the lack of need for the term 'atheism.'"

The fact that Jehovah, Zeus, the tooth fairy, and Allah are all mythological characters does not mean that there is no god. And nobody attempted to make that argument.

"that misplaced belief is in the eye of the observer and an almost purely subjective labeling."

Not all beliefs, all superstitions, and all religions are equally dangerous. We have yet to see a Jain suicide bomber, and last I checked Christians were no longer throwing rocks at young womens heads until they die. Where as some Muslim nations still do. Those are all positive changes. So your moral equivalence there is a bit missplaced. But I do agree that belief without evidence shouldn't be something we label as 'noble'. The world does not suffer from too much rational thinking.

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1/7/09 3:59 AM
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notabeliever
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so morality is somehow intrinsically related to the value of a belief system (dangerous vs. a conduit for positive change)?

how is this related to the plausibility of that same belief system?

what if the positive impact was overwhelming but the religion was based entirely on nonsense?

or if the underlying principles were indisputable but the results of exercising the practices of this particular faith were entirely destructive?
1/7/09 4:12 AM
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Matt Thornton
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"so morality is somehow intrinsically related to the value of a belief system (dangerous vs. a conduit for positive change)?"

I am not sure what a given society would label as "morality". But there can be no doubt that behaviours and actions are directly linked to belief systems. Such as the belief in an Islamic heaven, and its direct relationship to suicide bombers.

"what if the positive impact was overwhelming but the religion was based entirely on nonsense?. . . or if the underlying principles were indisputable but the results of exercising the practices of this particular faith were entirely destructive? "

Both very good questions that have yet to be discussed on this thread. But questions we should all ask ourselves when dealing at the practical level of providing resources to help others.

www.straightblastgym.com
1/8/09 1:11 PM
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Jorx
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Different strokes for different folks.

I think we can universally agree on that fundamentalism is evil.

I personally train because it is subjectively fun for me. If religion on whatever scale from believing in talking snakes to suspecting an anonymous prime mover is subjectively fun for someone - who am I to stop or convert him?
1/8/09 2:25 PM
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Matt Thornton
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 If religion on whatever scale from believing in talking snakes to suspecting an anonymous prime mover is subjectively fun for someone - who am I to stop or convert him?

If it were only that simple Jorx. First, nobody I am aware of has ever suggested 'stopping them', not through legislation, or any other such means. What has been suggested is a level of conversational intolerance when it comes to superstition being applied to everyday adult policy decisions which effect others.

Why that is important is because people that believe in a talking snake quite often want to legislate laws that effect the rest of us, based on religious ideas that hold the same rational basis as the talking snake does. And that is bad for everyone. And in other places, such as some Islamic nations, the insanity is taken much-much further. So no, it's not just a "fun" idea that people tend to hold onto, while leaving everyone else alone. If that were the case religion today would look far different then it does.
1/8/09 6:13 PM
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Jorx
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Yup, true. But as they have some kind of a unitary belief and value system to unite under and we critical and intelligent ppl do not (not to mention tendency for mass movement and easier influence and group thinking) then I think we are a dying breed:)

(add to that the fact that ppl with higher IQ tend to have less children and what u get is not a brighter self-organizing future which will regulate itself toward the better as older more fundamentalist generations die out)
1/17/09 12:34 AM
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VectorWegaLives
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 I watched this last week.  Great movie.  I guess you can say it was completely slanted one way, but I didn't think he was as "bad" as I would have expected him to be.  Most of it was not him making the people look bad but rather them making themselves look bad.  Heck, when he was having the conversation with Jesus, Jesus pwned Bill Maher on a point and Maher pretty much admitted he was pwned.

Anyways, I think it showed Maher in a more human life than you generally see him.  I'm glad he focused very little on George Bush and a lot more on radical islams.  If it was truly just a political agenda movie (ala Michael Moore) he would have done that much differently.

The one negative to the movie was that there were a couple of scenes where Maher pulled historical evidence out of his ass that simply doesn't exist.  A couple of times he says things that will make you think:  "Holy Crap!  Why didn't these Christians know this crap was fake?!?" until you realize that what he presented as fact was actually either made up or a very radical view that is not a historical fact.

Also, I was wondering if the priest Maher talked to at the Vatican was really a Priest or just some crazy person that Bill ran into that said he was a Priest.  May have been on drugs, IMO.
1/18/09 4:08 PM
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Matt Thornton
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"I was wondering if the priest Maher talked to at the Vatican was really a Priest or just some crazy person"
 
A crazy Catholic priest, isn't that redundent?

"there were a couple of scenes where Maher pulled historical evidence out of his ass that simply doesn't exist."

Can you give an example of one of these facts? 

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