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PetGround >> smiley thai: re dog vid on OG

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10/24/08 3:45 PM
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Dmclat
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Not trying to call you out or anything, I am no pro, don't have much experience w/ dogs.

I own a dog, it runs loose on my property when I am home, I only own 3/4 of an acre, w/ houses very close and a main road in the front. Behind me there is woods.

I would be very upset if I was in the bathroom taking a dump and this cop rolled in and shot my dog. My dog "looks" like a pit, though I don't think it is.

Do you really think that cop had the right to shoot a dog on someones private property where he had no more "right" than a stranger on said property.

I ask you because You seem very knowledgable and I respect your opinion.

I understand it is iiresposible to let your dog run loose, but I feel in this situation my dog is trained very well (for an amateur) and besides chasing cats off the property does not seem to pose any threat allowing her to run loose.
10/24/08 4:03 PM
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Dmclat
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I just finished reading the rest of that post, and i understand your arguement,

but for now I am a.f.k. till monday!
10/25/08 1:06 AM
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smileythai
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As stated, the argument is not about the dog being loose on her property or the deputy trespassing. It's about him defending himself as the dog charged. Everyone has the right to self-defense.

But if your dog is stable, obedient, and knows its borders then there should be little chance of a LE officer shooting it on your property. Meaning, if your dog keeps its distance or walks up slowly w/tail wagging there's no real cause, or defense, for the officer to escalate the situation unless he's phobic or an asshole.

However, your dog looking like a 'pit' can be problematic. A phobic or asshole officer may shoot it for no good reason, or at least scream at you to get your dog over the loud speaker of his crusier. But again, if you have enough control over your dog that it won't charge people, the chances of bad shit happening is decreased signifigantly.

 

10/27/08 11:47 AM
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Dmclat
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She will certainly charge someone or a car, but she is trying to get at them to be friendly not aggresivly, yet seeing a dark brindle dog w/ no tail come out of the woods at 100 towards you or your car....Yeah I'd have a dead dog.

Man I wish I could get her to be more obedient, I think I need to get a zap collar but I am not sure if it will work the way I want it too.

When a car pulls in I cannot get her to come to me w/out walking towards the car. she circles car at 100mph waiting for someone to get out of it.....I guess after I would call her and she didn't respond, zap? right?
10/27/08 3:25 PM
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Total JJ
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Asking smiley about the proper use of an e-collar may get you a bit more information than you are looking for...
10/27/08 4:45 PM
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smileythai
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Edited: 10/27/08 5:01 PM
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Total JJ - Asking smiley about the proper use of an e-collar may get you a bit more information than you are looking for...

Listen to this man, Dmclat. He knows what he's talking about! LOL



Anyway, sounds like you've got some control issues. Not good. But not too difficult to remedy. Your best option is to get yourself a Koehler book and follow it step by step. Uncompromising obedience on lead is a precursor to off lead obedience and a reliable recall. With consistant practice you'll be alright. And if problems persist, there's a few sections in the book that address shock devices and 'last resort' methods. I'm not a proponent of those particular methods because other options exist. But they do work. Just don't make the mistake of thinking they're primary training aides...they're NOT. Basic obedience training laid out in the book cures 90% of all behavior issues. Why? Because the dog learns to stop working for itself and start focusing on you, the handler.

As I tell everyone, cheap copies of the Koehler Method of Dog Training can be found on amazon and ebay. Get one and read it a few times before you begin training. Try to memorize it if at all possible. Then after you've gone through the program you can move onto Open Obedience...ie: off lead. 
10/28/08 1:14 PM
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Dmclat
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awesome, that is how I feel, the e_collar should be a last resort, and I can't justify it because I have not properly learned other obedience methods.

I will look into this Koehler method you speak of.
10/28/08 8:54 PM
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smileythai
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That's most people's problem; not knowing, or being too lazy to instill obedience in their dogs. It's no crime, not unless you let ignorance and laziness rule your life. People gotta start somewhere. I know I did. There was a time when my dogs considered walks on lead competitive weight pull events, and in addition to chewing everything within reach, they'd also piss all over the house. Those times were the SUCK!! 

But the more you learn the better your situation and the easier it is to prevent and/or fix problems as they arise.

Regarding Koehler. First thing you'll want to do is watch the video clip I posted here. It'll give you a good idea of what it's all about. Then get the books. I advise getting them both now because the Method of Open Obedience can be a little hard to come by nowadays, and I know there's at least 2 copies on ebay right now. So go ahead and pick it up as well. Just make sure you read it AFTER you've read the first book a few times.

Also, it bears repeating. Keep strict focus on the basic obedience program detailed in the books, and NOT the shock and last resort methods. In addition to not being primary training aides, they're also quite severe and have been known to sour people on the Koehler Method...which is a mistake. They just don't understand the difference between primary training aides and doing whatever's necessary to keep a dog from being euthanized. That said, if after going through the program with consistancy, you're still having issues with your dog, let me know. At the very least I can offer alternatives to some of the more severe training methods.

10/29/08 2:53 PM
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Dmclat
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smileythai better be no joke, I just ordered this Koehler method of dog training book.

And I have seen the video you posted a little bit back!

I currently have a stack of books to read "first" but i got about 3 months of reading piled up, maybe I can squeeze this one ttt
10/29/08 4:56 PM
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JCT
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smiley,
What do you think of the training that Ed Frawley of leerburg recommends, and his criticism of Koehler? Ed Frawley recommends using motivational methods (marker/clicker training) to teach a command, but will also use corrections once the dog knows the command (I think he calls it the proofing stage).
10/29/08 9:56 PM
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smileythai
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Dmclat,

Read whatever you want, if that's your perogative. But if you're gonna read Koehler make sure you follow it step by step. Do NOT mix theories, methods, or think you can get away with half-assed training.

You bought the book, use it.



JCT,

I'll be nice and just say I'm not a Frawley fan. In order for me to take anyone's criticisms of Koehler seriously, their background/experience, and more importantly, SUCCESS, would have to equal or exceed his own. Meaning, how many people criticising Koehler have personally trained 100 dogs? 1,000? Let alone the 15,000+ dogs Koehler is credited with training in all manner of recreation and serious work.

10/30/08 3:56 PM
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Dmclat
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smiley, Just kidding with you "smileythai better be no joke"

I Will read the book and make a desicion from there whether or not I want to attempt his methods. I know the biggest factor is if I can get my stoner ass to put in the consistent time and effort, not the method or the dog, but the handler!

I was so good with my dog for the longest time, then my girlfriend moved in and I went from an hour a day working + an hour of play. To a 20 minute walk/ quick exersise.

On the thread about a "guard dog" on the OG you mentioned the Canine Good Citizen test and I would really like to get her to pass that which shouldn't be too much work. If she takes to it well I would like to continue in obedience work.
10/30/08 4:16 PM
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smileythai
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CGC will be a gimme title once you've gone through the Koehler book step by step. You've got a boxer, right? With a pedigreed dog, once you've got the CGC you can look into all sorts of obedience competitions, that while hosted by the devill....AKC....remain quite the accomplishment for dog/handler in addition to being a lot of fun!


Actually haven't read it myself, yet. But here's the CGC book that outlines the requirements. Comes recommended by a lot of people: http://leerburg.com/978.htm


10/30/08 8:16 PM
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JCT
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smileythai - JCT,

I'll be nice and just say I'm not a Frawley fan. In order for me to take anyone's criticisms of Koehler seriously, their background/experience, and more importantly, SUCCESS, would have to equal or exceed his own. Meaning, how many people criticising Koehler have personally trained 100 dogs? 1,000? Let alone the 15,000+ dogs Koehler is credited with training in all manner of recreation and serious work.



Come on, you don't have to be nice here! lol

Anyway, it's just that I've been reading the information on his website so that's why I was curious what your opinion of his methods was. Do you just disagree with his criticism of Koehler, or do you disagree with his philosophies for training as well?

I was hoping to see you and Catastrophe girl in that other thread go into a debate on this subject, since the stuff she posted seems to be similar to what Frawley says, so that I could see the pros and cons of each.
10/30/08 10:54 PM
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smileythai
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JCT - 

Come on, you don't have to be nice here! lol

Anyway, it's just that I've been reading the information on his website so that's why I was curious what your opinion of his methods was. Do you just disagree with his criticism of Koehler, or do you disagree with his philosophies for training as well?

I was hoping to see you and Catastrophe girl in that other thread go into a debate on this subject, since the stuff she posted seems to be similar to what Frawley says, so that I could see the pros and cons of each.
Nope. I'm gonna keep playing nice this time. But I will say this, my issues with Frawley run deeper than a difference of opinion regarding Koehler. 

Take a look at his website and discussion board. Read the threads and see the variety of things he sells. Shouldn't take you long to figure it out.
 
10/31/08 10:50 AM
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MikeZev
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 I put the CGC on my dog about a year ago. Not difficult at all. There are a wide variety of methods out there that will help you prepare for the test. Koehler is one of them. I saw a couple clicker trained dogs run through the test with zero problems a couple weeks ago too.

for the record, when i CGC'd my dog i was still treating her for obedience. I didnt eliminate the treats for like another month or two after getting the title.

 

Frawley Hearts Baden.

10/31/08 10:02 PM
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smileythai
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MikeZev -  Frawley Hearts Baden.
No use baiting me, bro. I'm immune to Leerburg's power! lol



And no, the CGC is not difficult. If 300lb bull-dykes can do it with clickers anyone can. I'm just saying it's the minimum 'training' people should put on their dog(s), to prove they're not ignorant or completely lazy. And for Koehler, by the time Dmclat finishes the program he'll be able to transition from CGC to more advanced titles without the need for additional training. That's something not easily duplicated by conventional methods these days. Not gonna take a Petsmart or CGC prep class and walk into a conformation or obedience ring...dunno why anyone would want to in the first place, but I'm just sayin'... j/k lol
11/3/08 9:44 AM
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MikeZev
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 lol
11/3/08 10:10 AM
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smileythai
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Oh! And the 'dominance' thread on PBF? HAHAHAHAHA!!! Might need someone there to ban my ISP or something so I can stop reading the trainwreck posts over there!

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