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UnderGround Forums >> Seriously, how is A. Silva better P4P than Fedor?


10/28/08 3:53 PM
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WatchinMMA
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tk, wagner de somthing, old mark coleman, mark hunt, 205 linlan, hong man choi?
10/28/08 4:00 PM
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WatchinMMA
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how is that list better than what silva or gsp have done in the past couple years. a record is only as good as your comp
10/28/08 4:09 PM
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Charlie Waffles
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Fedor has lost one round in his career and that is including his loss due to cut. He beat the hell out of Nog, who in his weight class is a better opponent than anyone silva has fought. I would argue he is much better off of his back than Silva. His standup is not as good, but his ground and pound is better and overall technique is better. It is more like 1a and 1b, but if forced to make a choice, Fedor has to be, the numbers simply don't lie.
10/28/08 4:15 PM
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goeb
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It's a good debate

Anderson is more active against competition

Fedor has been more dominant over a long period of time, has never really been beaten (i.e, tapped, KO'ed, subbed).

What gives Anderson the edge in some polls, UFC influence, he is in the best organization, also dana helps it out with the "If you don't think anderosn is the top pound for pound fighter in the world your an idiot" phrase.

lately though we have seen anderosn run out of MW opponents (hence cote's shot when Okami got injured), which is sort of what will happen to fedor soon and sort of happened in Pride. He has arlovski and Barnett, then what if he wins? Not much left. Anderson can move to 205, but Fedor I doubt would move down to 205.

He beat nog twice, Cro Cop, Coleman, Randleman, and Sylvia all are former champs or GP winners.

On top of that he's beaten pretty good 205ers before he came to Pride, Babalu, and Arona.
10/28/08 4:28 PM
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BJ > DORKUS
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 " He beat the hell out of Nog, who in his weight class is a better opponent than anyone silva has fought"

Nog's lost to Fedor twice, Barnett, Henderson. Franklin has only lost to Anderson and Lyoto (who is himself undefeated).
10/28/08 4:32 PM
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Diego stole my name
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Silva had the option of becoming the Mike Tyson of the HW division and make far more money than he is currently today

But he prefers cutting to 185 because of the "challenge"
10/28/08 5:23 PM
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olafwd
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Edited: 10/28/08 5:28 PM
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The problem with pound-for-pound is that they rarely fight the same people. There's no objective standard, and there's nothing even close to consensus on who's the best P4P ... serious cases can be made for Fedor, Anderson and GSP.

I doubt anyone's going to change their opinion, so the best that can be said by consensus is that Fedor and Anderson are both dominant in their weight divisions (except for the occaisional guy like Dana White who says Fedor isn't even a top 10 heavyweight, and hopefully that's just marketing talking).

For my part I'd say Fedor, but I can understand people who say Anderson or GSP, and even BJ Penn. But even top ten lists in a weight division where people fight each other is almost impossible to agree upon, how is anyone going to agree on who's best among guys who never compete. Its like deciding if the Superbowl champs or the NBA champs are a better team.
10/28/08 5:57 PM
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Kansas Comet
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Fedor is my Number One and not sure how it can be disputed.

Fedor is virtually undefeated with no legitimate losses. The one illegitimate loss was quickly avenged with a TKO destruction in the rematch.

Fedor dominated Nog twice who is himself another one of the top P4P Fighters. Fedor dominated Cro Cop when Mirko was at his peak and number 2 or 3 in the world at the time.

Many distractors use the excuse that Fedor is a HW and P4P discussions are more about the lower weight competitors getting the love but that reasoning is debunkted by the fact that Fedor as a small HW 6 FT. 230 has defeated several fighters who were both taller and considerably heavier i.e. Big Tim, Semmy Schilt, Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman x2 etc.

This dominance and total body of work can not be matched even by Anderson who has 3 unavenged losses on his ledger.

GSP would get my vote for #2 to Fedor based on emphatically avenging both of his losses with dominating finishes times two on the great Matt Hughes and in the rematch with Serra.
10/28/08 5:59 PM
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olafwd
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YourFathersUncle - Fedor fights in thew weakest division. He's feeding on immobile schlubs.

No HW fighter is p4p anything.

When are you clowns going to acknowledge that?

Never.

I thought so.


Of course, and weight divisions were invented to protect big, slow schlubs from small, fast guys. Before they invented weight divisions there was no point for big guys to even try to compete, because they didn't have a chance ...

You've never competed in any combat sport (wrestling, judo, boxing etc) have you? Try it before you start going on about how weak the heavyweights are.
10/28/08 6:03 PM
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RiehlDeal
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Okay, if Silva cut from 230 to make 185 for the cote fight. Let him fight Fedor at an openweight. Silva is taller. I believe Fedor would destroy him. An absolute pummeling.
10/28/08 6:46 PM
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xakx
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I hate when people do ^^^ this ^^^

:)
10/28/08 7:31 PM
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BJ > DORKUS
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 "I believe Fedor would destroy him. An absolute pummeling."

No one seems to be able to explain why there are  plenty of guys who are much worse than Silva standing and on the ground whom Fedor has not "destroyed", yet he would "destroy" Anderson.
10/28/08 7:47 PM
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goeb
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fiercedragon - well fedor's 2 biggest challengers had obvious weaknesses(nog/striking and cro-cop/ground fighting) and he couldn't finish either. tell me what franklin,hendo and marquardt's obvious weaknesses are and which of them went the distance?



Marquardt weakness...at the time to conservative, and weak chin

Hendo weakness ...sticking to his gameplan, I don' know why he tried to stand with silva in the 2nd round.

Franklin...can't seem to defend that clinch


So Fedor didn't finish Cro Cop, but the fight wasn;t really close

and can you name me someone who has finished Nog, he's the toughest guy to finish in MMA. Cro Cop Fedor you could argue should'v esubbe dhim but that was cro cop on the top of his game, but Nog, no one has finished Nog. The 3 fighters mentioned above have been finished before fighting Anderson (Dan's been submitted by BTT 3 times now)
10/28/08 7:47 PM
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NORESPECT
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Fedor is the best fighter in the history of MMA. Anyone who disagrees is a retard
10/28/08 8:02 PM
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truthisalive
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45cal - 
NORESPECT - Fedor is the best fighter in the history of MMA. Anyone who disagrees is a retard


No, you're a retard.

Anderson is the best fighter in the history of MMA.



redraft.


Fedor Emelianenko is the best fighter in the history of MMA.
10/28/08 8:17 PM
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whistleblower
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The OP is exactly correct. For two similarly sized fighters, Fedor has done much more with his 230 lbs. than Anderson ever has.

Case in point:
cristianjp -
Edor since 2006: Tim Sylvia, Hong Man Choi, Matt Lindland Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman.

Silva since 2006: Patrick Cote, James Irvin(205), Dan Henderson, Rich Franklin(2), Nate Marquardt, Travis Lutter, Rich Franklin, Chris Leben.

Now let's look at it like this - let's SWITCH their sets of wins.

Let's say Fedor destroyed Hendo, Franklin, and Marquardt - while Anderson beat Sylvia, Choi, Hunt, and Lindland.

With those wins alone, not only would there be NO QUESTION that Anderson would deserve that mythical "P4P" #1 status - but he would actually be hailed as the greatest "P4P" fighter ever.

Whereas if Fedor destroyed the guys that Anderson did, he would be absolutely LAUGHED AT for beating fighters who were beneath him - just like he was with Lindland.

Except that Lindland would actually be without question one of Anderson's best wins ever.

Think about that. Opponents who were considered less-than-worthy for Fedor would have instead been some of Anderson's most impressive wins ever. The guys that Fedor has beaten in just the last couple of years alone - even some of the more lackluster ones - would actually be hailed as some of Anderson's most monumental achievements.

(Can you imagine how crazy people would go if Anderson actually beat Sylvia, Choi, Hunt, or even Lindland?)

Whereas if Fedor easily destroyed the guys that Anderson did, Fedor would be roundly ridiculed for even facing them in the first place.

And again, factor in the fact that Fedor and Anderson are both similar to each other in size - and who's done more with that size?

Even some of Fedor's "weaker" opponents (like Choi or even Lindland) would have a great chance of straight-up beating the best opponents that Anderson has ever faced.

Fedor has beaten far better opponents on an absolute level than Anderson ever has - all while being not much bigger than Anderson at all.
10/28/08 8:23 PM
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truthisalive
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whistleblower - The OP is exactly correct. For two similarly sized fighters, Fedor has done much more with his 230 lbs. than Anderson ever has.

Case in point:
cristianjp -
Edor since 2006: Tim Sylvia, Hong Man Choi, Matt Lindland Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman.

Silva since 2006: Patrick Cote, James Irvin(205), Dan Henderson, Rich Franklin(2), Nate Marquardt, Travis Lutter, Rich Franklin, Chris Leben.

Now let's look at it like this - let's SWITCH their sets of wins.

Let's say Fedor destroyed Hendo, Franklin, and Marquardt - while Anderson beat Sylvia, Choi, Hunt, and Lindland.

With those wins alone, not only would there be NO QUESTION that Anderson would deserve that mythical "P4P" #1 status - but he would actually be hailed as the greatest "P4P" fighter ever.

Whereas if Fedor destroyed the guys that Anderson did, he would be absolutely LAUGHED AT for beating fighters who were beneath him - just like he was with Lindland.

Except that Lindland would actually be without question one of Anderson's best wins ever.

Think about that. Opponents who were considered less-than-worthy for Fedor would have instead been some of Anderson's most impressive wins ever. The guys that Fedor has beaten in just the last couple of years alone - even some of the more lackluster ones - would actually be hailed as some of Anderson's most monumental achievements.

(Can you imagine how crazy people would go if Anderson actually beat Sylvia, Choi, Hunt, or even Lindland?)

Whereas if Fedor easily destroyed the guys that Anderson did, Fedor would be roundly ridiculed for even facing them in the first place.

And again, factor in the fact that Fedor and Anderson are both similar to each other in size - and who's done more with that size?

Even some of Fedor's "weaker" opponents (like Choi or even Lindland) would have a great chance of straight-up beating the best opponents that Anderson has ever faced.

Fedor has beaten far better opponents on an absolute level than Anderson ever has - all while being not much bigger than Anderson at all.




stands up and cheers...then claps with tear in eye...


a masterpiece of a post....thank you Whistleblower.
10/28/08 8:36 PM
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whistleblower
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BJ > DORKUS - Because Anderson has utterly destroyed the absolute best fighters in his division, all in a row, without breaking a sweat.

And what does comparing strictly within-division accomplishments have to do with an across-weight-classes "P4P" discussion - when the comparison is actually between two similarly sized fighters?

The fact is that while being close to each other in size, Fedor has beaten absolutely better opponents than Anderson ever has - regardless of how good those opponents are within their own specific weight classes.

The best HW's are just better on a straight-up, absolute level than the best 185-ers are.
BJ > DORKUS - Tim Sylvia is the best fighter Fedor has *ever* finished

And Tim Sylvia alone is a better fighter than Anderson has ever even faced, much less finished. Tim Sylvia alone would straight-up beat everyone that Anderson has ever stepped in the ring against.

So if you're going to compare them both as 230 lbs. fighters, and compare their "P4P" accomplishments - who has done more? Who has beaten the far better absolute opponents with the size that they have?

Hendo and Franklin are top fighters at 185 and even 205 - but would they even beat Sylvia, Choi, and Hunt? It's not for-sure that they would even beat a fellow 185-er in Lindland.
BJ > DORKUS - Fedor has not fought many of the good fighters in his division -- no Barnett, Arlovski, Kharitonov, Overeem, Werdum, etc

And likewise, Anderson "has not fought many of the good fighters in his division" -- no Lindland, Mousasi, Lawler, Akiyama, Misaki, Kang, Trigg, Jacare, Maia, etc. See how that cuts both ways?

(And unlike Fedor with his opponents, Anderson would actually be bigger than most of them, and at least no smaller.)

You don't need to beat every single top fighter around in the entire division to have still dominated it. Otherwise, neither Anderson nor Fedor would qualify.


And in comparing two fighters head-to-head - if weight is not a factor (and it doesn't seem to be much of one at all between Fedor and Anderson) - then straight-up, who would be favored to beat whom?

That in itself should tell the tale when it comes to BOTH "P4P" and absolute superiority when the comparison is between two similarly sized fighters.
10/28/08 8:47 PM
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whistleblower
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YourFathersUncle - Fedor fights in thew weakest division.

Actually, MW was a MUCH weaker division when Anderson came in and dominated than HW was when Fedor did the same.

In fact, MW was without question historically the weakest and most underdeveloped of the 5 major weight classes.

YourFathersUncle - No HW fighter is p4p anything.

Well Anderson by weight would also qualify as a "HW fighter" - except that he fights and dominates at TWO weight classes below.
10/28/08 9:22 PM
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whistleblower
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fiercedragon - you seem to be trying to compare bodyweight to body type...which aren't the same thing.

Oh I agree - except that it's still a fact (by Anderson's own admissions) that Anderson has been a huge 185-er, and is actually even as big as a 205-er at least.

And he certainly has the frame and body type to easily accommodate a jump up to at least one higher weight class than what he's been dominating at so far.

Actually, even cutting down to 205 with his frame, he would still be as big as, or even bigger than, some of the top 205-ers anyway - so even at that higher weight class, he would still not be at much of a size disadvantage, if at all.

And so it is a fact that, along with his awe-inspiring technique, he has still certainly used his pounds and inches to his advantage so far in the 185 division.

He has been noticeably bigger than most of the opponents he's faced - and with his body type he definitely could still fight higher than at what he has been, without suffering much (if at all) because of lack of size.

Do you disagree?

And the fact remains that there still wouldn't be much of an overall size difference between Fedor and a LHW Anderson anyway, since Fedor (unlike Anderson) is quite small for his division - and not much bigger at all than a big, in-shape 205-er (like Anderson would be).

Fedor is 6'0", 230 lbs., and doesn't cut to come in and fight. Anderson is 6'2" - and wouldn't be much smaller overall than Fedor even when in fighting shape for 205.

fiercedragon - ask yourself if you think fedor could make 185...

And you don't have to ask yourself the reverse - since Anderson definitely could make HW.

And yet do you think he would still dominate there as Fedor has done?
10/28/08 9:38 PM
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BJ > DORKUS
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 "Marquardt weakness...at the time to conservative, and weak chin"

Weak chin? He has 28 fights and Anderson is the only guy ever to stop him with strikes.

"Hendo weakness ...sticking to his gameplan, I don' know why he tried to stand with silva in the 2nd round."

Because Silva rocked him almost immediately and Dan was in survival mode after that.

"Franklin...can't seem to defend that clinch"

That's a great argument. I guess Crocop and Nog just can't seem to defend the takedown.

"
And likewise, Anderson "has not fought many of the good fighters in his division" -- no Lindland, Mousasi, Lawler, Akiyama, Misaki, Kang, Trigg, Jacare, Maia, etc. See how that cuts both ways?"

Not one of those guys, except Maia, is available for Anderson to fight. With the exception of Arlovski, every single fighter I named was available for Fedor to fight for years. In any case, Anderson fought 3 of the top guys in his division back-to-back and smashed them all. If Fedor actually ends up fighting Arlovski in January it will be the first time ever that he has fought two top opponents without cans or years between them.


"
So if you're going to compare them both as 230 lbs. fighters, and compare their "P4P" accomplishments - who has done more? Who has beaten the far better absolute opponents with the size that they have?"

But they're not 230lb fighters. Anderson is a 185lb fighter who spent most of his career at 170lb. It doesn't matter what he walks around at. Do you seriously think he cuts 45lb of water weight and then gains back 45lb before getting in the ring? At best, he is in the ring around 205, just like most if not all of his opponents.
He's isn't Alves or Tibau, visibly dwarfing everyone he's in the ring with.

"
And Tim Sylvia alone is a better fighter than Anderson has ever even faced,"

What is Tim Sylvia better at than Nate Marquardt? Wrestling? BJJ? Striking? How about Franklin? Or Henderson? Is Tim better at anything than any of those guys? I don't know if you know this, but Henderson has beaten heavyweights before, including Fedor's biggest win Nogueira.


10/28/08 9:40 PM
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BJ > DORKUS
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 "and if you disagree, ask yourself if you think fedor could make 185..."

Of course he could. He's what, 5'11"? And if he did, it wouldn't somehow be "unfair" because AT OTHER TIMES he walks at 230. He would have no significant size advantage over his opponents if he fought at 185; they would all be about the same height and 200-205 in the ring.
10/28/08 9:43 PM
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Derek Jeter Fan
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cristianjp - Edor since 2006: Tim Sylvia, Hong Man Choi, Matt Lindland Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman.

Silva since 2006: Patrick Cote, James Irvin(205), Dan Henderson, Rich Franklin(2), Nate Marquardt, Travis Lutter, Rich Franklin, Chris Leben.



good post, only credible opponent he faced on that list is Sylvia, Hong who? lindland was a smaller guy, hunt and coleman were past their primes.
10/28/08 10:24 PM
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Haulport
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END OF THREAD!



10/28/08 10:24 PM
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Haulport
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THIS THREAD IS FILTHY WITH ZUFFA PAID POSTERS!!!

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