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UnderGround Forums >> Seriously, how is A. Silva better P4P than Fedor?


10/28/08 10:35 PM
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whistleblower
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BJ > DORKUS - Not one of those guys, except Maia, is available for Anderson to fight. With the exception of Arlovski, every single fighter I named was available for Fedor to fight for years.

LOL, no they weren't "available for Fedor to fight for years."

It wasn't until 2006 when all of them, except for Sergei, had really emerged as top contenders - and Fedor was out for most of that year. (Before 2006, Barnett had been largely irrelevant in the HW division for years.)

Then in 2007, Pride folded.

But up through 2005, Fedor had faced every top contender that had emerged in Pride's HW division. It wasn't until 2006 when he missed the OWGP because of injury and surgery that he failed to keep cleaning the division out.

And now, after facing Sylvia and Arlovski back-to-back, he will have far better consecutive opponents than Anderson currently has with James Irvin and Patrick Cote.
BJ > DORKUS - "So if you're going to compare them both as 230 lbs. fighters, and compare their "P4P" accomplishments - who has done more? Who has beaten the far better absolute opponents with the size that they have?"

But they're not 230lb fighters. Anderson is a 185lb fighter who spent most of his career at 170lb. It doesn't matter what he walks around at. Do you seriously think he cuts 45lb of water weight and then gains back 45lb before getting in the ring? At best, he is in the ring around 205, just like most if not all of his opponents. He's isn't Alves or Tibau, visibly dwarfing everyone he's in the ring with.

He's still noticeably quite a bit bigger than most of his opponents - unlike Fedor.

And how much do you think Anderson weighed come fight-time for his fight against Irvin? Do you think it was more than 10-15 lbs. lighter than Fedor come fight-time?

BJ > DORKUS - "And Tim Sylvia alone is a better fighter than Anderson has ever even faced,"

What is Tim Sylvia better at than Nate Marquardt? Wrestling? BJJ? Striking? How about Franklin? Or Henderson? Is Tim better at anything than any of those guys? I don't know if you know this, but Henderson has beaten heavyweights before, including Fedor's biggest win Nogueira.

LOL, you self-contradicting hypocrite. Haven't you previously called Hendo's win over Nog a complete BS decision? (Which it really was.)

Now you're trying to cite it as some kind of definitive and worthy win for Hendo just to support your argument here? LOL.

(But directly contradicting yourself from one case to the other just to keep in line with your biases is typical orcus-brand logic, so I'm not surprised.)

And yes, Tim Sylvia is definitely better than Marquardt, Franklin, and Hendo on an absolute level - just straight-up, as is, in real life.

Tell us which one of Anderson's opponents in his entire career that you would actually favor to beat Sylvia.

Again, Tim Sylvia alone is absolutely better than all of Anderson's opponents - he would straight-up beat everyone that Anderson has ever faced.
10/28/08 11:41 PM
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HELWIG
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 Id take Anderson being 230 with a grain of salt. 210, sure.

But 230 would not look pretty on that frame and would leave his skin pretty stretched out when he shrunk back down to compete.
10/28/08 11:45 PM
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olafwd
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In last 12 months:

Fedor: Choi, Sylvia
Anderson: Henderson, Irvin, Cote

Slight advantage to Anderson.

Since 2006 someone else did, definite advantage to Anderson.

Since 2002 huge advantage to Fedor.

So if you go by recent (last year) results it probably Anderson, but neither has done as much as GSP.

If you go by medium term (last 3 years) results its definitely Anderson.

If you go by long term (last 5 years) results its definitely Fedor.

In terms of who's best right now, you have to go short term (three years is an eternity in sports, how many repeat champions do you get in any major sport, and that's just year to year).

If you go back as far as 2006 you might as well go back to 2004, both are pretty much ancient history as far as sport is concerned.

In absolute terms (ie if there were no artificial weight divisions) I'd pick Fedor - in fact, many of the guys he's beat (including the much maligned Sylvia, Big Nog, and even Mark Hunt would probably beat Anderson in an open weight fight). In P4P terms you might as well agree to disagree, because there's no way to get anything like a consensus. Ultimately they're both phenomenal athletes who can't be directly compared unless they actually get into the ring or cage together. People are mostly just saying who's their favorite fighter, there's no objective criteria in P4P because there's no way to test any hypothesis.
10/29/08 12:41 AM
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BJ > DORKUS
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 "END OF THREAD!"

If the date above your post were 2004, maybe.

"
even Mark Hunt would probably beat Anderson in an open weight fight"

I don't think so. Wanderlei took Hunt down at will and he is no wrestler. Anderson would submit Hunt. Nog, who knows? Anderson toys with him standing in training, Nog does not have great takedowns, and Anderson could quite possibly survive on the ground until he can get back to his feet (just like Herring did in 2 out of their 3 fights). Anderson vs Tim would be a cool fight.
10/29/08 12:42 AM
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whistleblower
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olafwd - In absolute terms (ie if there were no artificial weight divisions) I'd pick Fedor - in fact, many of the guys he's beat (including the much maligned Sylvia, Big Nog, and even Mark Hunt would probably beat Anderson in an open weight fight). In P4P terms you might as well agree to disagree, because there's no way to get anything like a consensus.

Yeah, completely agree. "P4P" is ultimately mythical anyway - and based as much, if not more so, on speculation across the weight classes than on real life.

But in real life, the absolute best fighter in the world is Fedor. He would be favored to beat every single other fighter in the world, as is, in every weight class (including Anderson).

The best MW fighter in the world is Anderson. He would be favored to beat every single fighter in the world up to the MW division.


But as far as "P4P" goes - when two guys are fairly similar to each other in size, imo, I just can't see how the one who is considered just straight-up, absolutely better - and who has also beaten straight-up, absolutely better opponents - shouldn't accordingly be considered "P4P" better as well.

Since the size discrepancy alone isn't enough to be the difference-maker there.

And yet who here would actually favor Anderson to beat Fedor head-to-head?

And who here would actually favor the guys Anderson has beaten to straight-up beat the guys Fedor has beaten? (Again, Tim Sylvia alone would beat everyone that Anderson has ever even faced.)
10/29/08 1:01 AM
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WatchinMMA
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orcus, thanks again for having the patience to break down things for these trolls. I swear half of these tards dont even know what p4p stands for.
10/29/08 1:04 AM
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olafwd
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"I don't think so. Wanderlei took Hunt down at will and he is no wrestler. Anderson would submit Hunt. Nog, who knows? Anderson toys with him standing in training, Nog does not have great takedowns, and Anderson could quite possibly survive on the ground until he can get back to his feet (just like Herring did in 2 out of their 3 fights). Anderson vs Tim would be a cool fight."

That was when Hunt was pretty new to MMA, he's gotten better since then. Admittedly Silva is still a lot better than Hunt on the ground, but then again he's a lot better than Cote on the ground (in fact I'd predicted Silva in round one by submission against Cote) but Anderson didn't seem to be at all interested in going there. I suspect Anderson would try to finish Hunt off standing, and I think he'd lose in the process ... of course if he did take it to the ground he'd win, but would he? He seems to avoid the ground lately.

I don't think Anderson could finish Big Nog standing (so far not even a lot bigger, harder hitting guys have done so), and because of the size difference I think it'd just be a question of time before Nog got him. Probably like most of his fights Nog would be hit a lot first though. There's a real tendency to underestimate Nog, but if not for Fedor I think everyone would be comparing Nog vs Anderson for P4P ... arguably Nog has a better record than Fedor other than their fights against each other (ie Nog has fought more than Fedor has).

And Anderson against Sylvia would probably be a standup fight (again, Anderson doesn't seem to be interested in going to the ground, though he's very good there, and Tim is for most guys hard to get to the ground). I suspect Anderson would not know how to handle the (for him) unusual situation of giving up reach - he's never had to practice head movement for instance ... plus Sylvia hits very hard. We like to think size isn't important, but its a big element in combat sport.
10/29/08 1:35 AM
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Samoanpowr
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LOL@ "look at the records since 2006" which conveniently leaves out the ass raping that Fedor handed out twice to the current UFC Champion.  History is revisionist anyway.  At the time Fedor fought Cro-Cop, Mirko was the most feared heavyweight in the world.  Trying to discount that because of what Mirko did AFTER that fight is akin to talking about Valentijn Overeem tapping out Randy Couture with ease TODAY.

Samoa.
10/29/08 1:48 AM
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whistleblower
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BJ > DORKUS - I don't think so. Wanderlei took Hunt down at will and he is no wrestler.

Yeah, Wanderlei would take Hunt down - and then just get rolled over by Hunt's sheer weight alone (even while mounted). Now Wanderlei did control the pace of the fight with the repeated TD's - but really couldn't do anything with them to hurt or damage Hunt.

And back on the feet, Wanderlei got the worst of it.

BJ > DORKUS - Nog, who knows? Anderson toys with him standing in training

And Filho reportedly "toys with" and taps out Anderson on the ground in training as well.

And are you saying that you would actually favor Anderson to beat Nog?

BJ > DORKUS - Anderson vs Tim would be a cool fight.

LMAO.

So are you saying you would favor Anderson to beat Tim as well? I'm not really sure Anderson could even beat Choi.

(And boy, what's Anderson been doing slumming in the 185 division all this time - when he could actually be the #2 HW in the world after beating Sylvia and Nog.)

olafwd - but if not for Fedor I think everyone would be comparing Nog vs Anderson for P4P

If not for Fedor, Nog would still be the greatest and the absolute best MMA fighter ever (as well as still the #1 HW in the world).

In fact, he already was universally regarded as the greatest ever (where he was even considered mythically invincible) before Fedor beat him - and would have still remained so all these years.

olafwd - arguably Nog has a better record than Fedor other than their fights against each other (ie Nog has fought more than Fedor has).

If you don't count Fedor's wins over Nog, then Nog would definitely have the better record.
10/29/08 1:57 AM
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NORESPECT
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orcus has been a known Fedor hater for years
10/29/08 2:19 AM
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Kansas Comet
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I stated my peace earlier on this thread hopefully Fedor will make another emphatic statement of his greatest in January vs Arlovski.
10/29/08 2:34 AM
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Squatdog
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This must be a DIFFERENT Fedor to the one that completely dominated the current UFC champion TWICE!

Also, the Sylvia mentioned is clearly different from the one that was the UFC champion a year ago, was dominating Minotauro for most of their fight and was the fighter Zuffa insinuated that Fedor was 'scared of'...
10/29/08 4:11 AM
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THP
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Edited: 10/29/08 4:11 AM
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Who gives a shit about P4P anyways. It is a title without a strap.
10/29/08 4:15 AM
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voorhees
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"Who gives a shit about P4P anyways"

I agree.I get sick of hearing this crap cause there is no answer and no end to it.
10/29/08 4:19 AM
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MMAmike
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whistleblower - The OP is exactly correct. For two similarly sized fighters, Fedor has done much more with his 230 lbs. than Anderson ever has.

Case in point:
cristianjp -
Edor since 2006: Tim Sylvia, Hong Man Choi, Matt Lindland Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman.

Silva since 2006: Patrick Cote, James Irvin(205), Dan Henderson, Rich Franklin(2), Nate Marquardt, Travis Lutter, Rich Franklin, Chris Leben.

Now let's look at it like this - let's SWITCH their sets of wins.

Let's say Fedor destroyed Hendo, Franklin, and Marquardt - while Anderson beat Sylvia, Choi, Hunt, and Lindland.

With those wins alone, not only would there be NO QUESTION that Anderson would deserve that mythical "P4P" #1 status - but he would actually be hailed as the greatest "P4P" fighter ever.

Whereas if Fedor destroyed the guys that Anderson did, he would be absolutely LAUGHED AT for beating fighters who were beneath him - just like he was with Lindland.

Except that Lindland would actually be without question one of Anderson's best wins ever.

Think about that. Opponents who were considered less-than-worthy for Fedor would have instead been some of Anderson's most impressive wins ever. The guys that Fedor has beaten in just the last couple of years alone - even some of the more lackluster ones - would actually be hailed as some of Anderson's most monumental achievements.

(Can you imagine how crazy people would go if Anderson actually beat Sylvia, Choi, Hunt, or even Lindland?)

Whereas if Fedor easily destroyed the guys that Anderson did, Fedor would be roundly ridiculed for even facing them in the first place.

And again, factor in the fact that Fedor and Anderson are both similar to each other in size - and who's done more with that size?

Even some of Fedor's "weaker" opponents (like Choi or even Lindland) would have a great chance of straight-up beating the best opponents that Anderson has ever faced.

Fedor has beaten far better opponents on an absolute level than Anderson ever has - all while being not much bigger than Anderson at all.


Well put, Whistleblower! I couldn't have said it better myself :)
10/29/08 4:20 AM
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MMAmike
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THP - Who gives a shit about P4P anyways. It is a title without a strap.


Apparently you care enough to waste your time posting on this thread.
10/29/08 5:07 AM
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Diego stole my name
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^^ He is 6,3 and he made James Irvin look small

He might not be 230 ripped. But Fedor is not exactly ripped at HW either and he could make LHW

No matter how you look at it. Silva is very close to Fedors size. But they fight two weightclasses apart
10/29/08 5:09 AM
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MMAmike
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WhiteWhale - silva aint 230 in shape

that is him fat look at his frame guys

or is he cutting 55 lbs of water?



Uh, you mean like Fedor?
10/29/08 5:09 PM
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MMAmike
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ttt
10/29/08 6:25 PM
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Kansas Comet
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Fedor is probably the classiest fighter out there; dude is so modest and has never proclaimed he is the greatest fighter out there, quite the contrary the man is so humble and polite you would never guess just looking at him outside the Ring that he is the baddest man on the planet.

I don't know where the distractors of Fedor come from it makes no sense maybe they are just UFC Backers who hate the fact that anyone can overcome the monopoly and restrictive Contracts Zuffa offers. Fedor doing it so successfully with so much class, intelligence probably irks the naysayers as well.
10/29/08 6:51 PM
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rhino x2
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LOL

BJ Penn has been stopped guys.
Silva has been stopped guys.
GSP has been stopped guys. 2x Serra and Hughes.

Fedor has never been stopped and has fought many more champion caliber fighters than any of the above.
ColemanUFC champ, Randelmann ufc champ, S.Schlit KOP, K1 champ, Minotauro current UFC champ, T.Sylvia UFC champ,

Also Lindland, Giant Korean, Hunt, CroCop(prime for sure) and others IMO probally could beat Silva.

Fedor is the best, look at the OG members who SEE this. OLd School long time fans. Look at the ones who disagree posters with 2008 dates LOL. Fucking noobs dont know shit about MMA.

Fedor is the new Rickson ???? Wake the fuck up dude. Fedor has beaten the best. Rickson has never fought a top 10 MMA'r.

I do give Silva credit the guy is tough, his best win was against Henderson and that surprised me. Fedor though has beat Nog 2x! Thats more impressive by far.

Fedor is the best EVER! Dont hate the player(Fedor) hate the game(ufc) Lets see Silva fight at LHW against Evans, Forrest, V.Silva, Rampage etc... He is a great fighter, but Fedor would destroy HIM! No doubt in my mind.
10/29/08 6:57 PM
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pulsar
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 Silva's record doesn't touch Fedor's I'm afraid.

I'd happily have him as 3rd best pfp after Fedor and Penn.
10/29/08 7:00 PM
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EvilMaster
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1: Fedor
2: Anderson

And it's not even close, Fedor really is in a class all his own. Anderson is a VERY distant second.
10/29/08 7:05 PM
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PoundforPound
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Edited: 10/29/08 7:10 PM
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Career-wise, Fedor is P4P #1. But for the past year or two, taking into account quality of opposition, it's been Silva hands down.

Fedor has a chance to get back on top IMO by just beating some tougher opponents (i.e. Josh Barnett.)
10/29/08 8:04 PM
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MMAmike
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Diego stole my name - Silva had the option of becoming the Mike Tyson of the HW division and make far more money than he is currently today

But he prefers cutting to 185 because of the "challenge"


LOL, this post says it all :)

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