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UnderGround Forums >> Seriously, how is A. Silva better P4P than Fedor?


10/30/08 9:03 PM
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FightinMD
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Fedor is the best P4P.
10/30/08 9:28 PM
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PoundforPound
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whistleblower - And yet he was still included in the P4P top 10 at times during his reign (although not most of the time). So his general exclusion wasn't just because there were just too many "great fighters in the lighter weights."


Yes it was! When Lennox was included in the list it was precicesly because so many of the fighters in other weight classes had fallen off.

Lennox's skill and quality of opposition had reached a point where they were BETTER than those of many lighter weight fighters.
10/30/08 9:39 PM
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WoodenPupa
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What a PFP discussion aims at in its ideal is to arrive at a total separation of skill from its embodiment in a given fighter. It wants not to minimize the fact of the body, but treat the body as though it did not exist at all in order to examine the skillset in its purity.

Since the body in many instances obscures the skill, it becomes difficult to analyze a particular move---chains of which constitute fights as a whole---in PFP terms.

Was a particular move mostly skill, athleticism, luck (the result of incidental cooperation from the opponent via a slip, or a bad ref call, etc), or what?

In particular, fight-ending moves provoke distinctions of this sort to come into our minds. We especially want to know whether another similarly skilled fighter with lower athleticism would have been able to pull the move off.

Unfortunately, skillsets are embodied in the real world, and bodies obscure skill. When the gulf in skill is wide, the task is easy. But when the gap is small or at least difficult to evaluate---as it becomes when comparing champions---the whole affair becomes clouded with an uneasy sort of reckoning.

We would like to imagine running a simulation in which disembodied skillsets are dueling in a magical dimension. But getting sufficiently quality dope to run this simulation proves difficult.

*puts pipe down*

We might try to get around this by proposing not disembodied skillsets, but the same embodiment for all their instantiations. So, for example, we propose a generic body at 170 lbs into which we drop all the skillsets---BJ Penn's, Fedor's, etc.

But there is no such generic body, because every body must have particular athletic attributes. We cannot build any body in a general way. So we might as well propose a particular fighter's body as the universal, and drop skillsets into THAT.

Now in a roundabout way we've conceded that the best we can do is minimize, rather than eliminate, the fact of the body in our analysis of skillsets. But this might not be so bad.

What we want in the universal fighter body then, is not the *least* athleticism; but rather a body which resides somewhere in the middle of the athletic spectrum---one which neither astonishes nor overly disappoints.

For if we propose a noticeably weak, slow, etc, fighter body, we've merely accomplished a reverse athletic distortion, in which the fighter's lack of positive physical attributes interferes with his skill. What we wanted in the first place was to escape the distortion of over-athleticism or tremendous size; so we don't want to replace that distortion with another kind.

Plenty of candidates for this universal body are available. My preference would be to draw from the 170 lb. weight class, since this approximates the natural size of the average man's frame best---in the 5'9" - 6'0" range, not extremely broad or narrow, neither Neanderthal nor bird boned.

We could go up to 185 though, and take someone like Evan Tanner. Although very athletic compared to the average Joe, he didn't astonish. So we could ask what would happen if we put various skillsets into this body. Would Evan Tanner's body, having acquired Fedor's skillset, beat another Evan Tanner body, if that one were endowed with BJ Penn's skillset?

(I'm sure a better example than Evan Tanner can be found, but that is what comes to mind for me at the moment.)

Note that running the simulation this way, with two humdrum bodies rather than two athletic freaks in the duel, such as a pair of Fedors, is the best way to avoid distortion. The goal is to neither handicap nor enhance the skillset, to the degree a real body can allow this.

But note that distortion is never fully escapable, and it is a very plausible argument that athletic and size distortion is always destructively present to any otherwise compelling logic in PFP discussions.

Which is why the term "mythical," as Whistleblower uses it in these PFP discussions, is especially apt, as it refers not merely to the lack of a literal PFP belt in combat sports, but the fairly impossible nature of ever rendering a fully satisfactory argument about who would deserve such a title, were the belt to exist.
10/30/08 9:41 PM
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WoodenPupa
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*gets FRAT tattooed on shoulder beneath barbwire tribal ink*
10/30/08 9:42 PM
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pulsar
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Edited: 10/30/08 9:42 PM
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Any Lennox ridicule generally comes down to Americans refusing to priase boxers (particularly HW) from other countires.

As you've picked up orcus, I personally think the UFC MW division is the weakest they have. I've always thought MW's were full of people that should be a div above or below, so in that light, I don't think Anderson's victories are that special.

Marquardt has looked good since his loss to Anderson, perhaps Silva lit a fire under him, but I still think when they met Nate was just the next in line as opposed to a truly legitimate contendor.

When they rematch dude, I'll take Hendo against him. Straight up.

Regardless, I will always be in-line with you orcus becuase you sought a greater good for MMA, quality consistent sporting MMA. As opposed to supporting an obvisouly failed set of events and corporations that would have seen MMA further maringalized. Like WB.

 
10/30/08 9:54 PM
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whistleblower
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BJ > DORKUS - Not to mention everyone -- including WB -- routinely talk about how thin the HW division is.

What? WTF, that's not even just a typical orcus distortion - but just a flat-out lie.

I've actually been doing the opposite - and "routinely talk[ing] about" how falsely overstated the thinness of the HW division really is.

Even on just this thread alone, I've stated multiple times that HW was not even as thin and underdeveloped a division as MW was when Anderson came in.

BJ > DORKUS - If Anderson's opponents are the best guys in a better division

But that's just it - MW just wasn't "a better division."

Fedor had to beat Schilt and Herring (who was still a top HW at the time) to even earn his title shot against Nog in the first place.

Anderson had to beat Leben.

And before Anderson, the "#1 contenders" that Rich Franklin had to defend against were Nate Quarry and David Loiseau.

Yes, what a powerhouse weight class MW had been. MW was hardly "a better division."


And when comparing Fedor with Anderson on just a straight-up, absolute level - which is reasonable given that they are actually similar to each other in size - Fedor has dominated straight-up, absolutely better opponents than Anderson ever has.

Again, Tim Sylvia alone would beat everyone that Anderson has ever even faced.

(And btw, Tim Sylvia alone would also outstrike everyone that Anderson has ever beaten, and is an absolutely better striker than everyone Anderson has ever outstruck.)
10/30/08 10:06 PM
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whistleblower
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BJ > DORKUS - "Orcus of all of you should know that you will lose."

lol, whatever. I can't really argue effectively with him these days because I've had him on Ignore for a long time now. I can only respond to what I happen to see in quotes.

LMAO.

So you claim to have had me "on Ignore for a long time now" - and yet you started off your post by claiming that you've seen me "routinely talk about how thin the HW division is." (Which was a lie anyway.)

But how could you even presume to know what I've been "routinely" saying about the HW division lately, if you haven't even regularly seen my posts "for a long time now" (unless they are quoted)?

And I can't help but notice that you've actually spent quite a bit of time on just this thread alone responding directly to my posts - but you will only do so when you "happen to see" them quoted by someone else, because you don't have the nerve to actually face them yourself?

LOL.

If you're going to bother to inevitably respond anyway, why even bother to ignore?

You lying, dick-tucking little girl.
10/30/08 10:38 PM
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pulsar
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Get the fuck over it dude.

One thing's for sure, you've reminded a number of people why you were disregarded so frequently.
10/31/08 7:58 AM
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Diego stole my name
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lol @ orcus getting owned so badly that he was forced to ignore WB


And lol @ pulsars retarded "orcus is posting for the credibility of the sport"

WB is not biased in the least. He was one of the only guys who said Forrest is the true LHW champion in the world. But im sure there was some Pride agenda behind there

Unlike orcus who has bashed Fedor since day one. How is it surprising that he picks Anderson?

A great experiment would be the GSP and BJ Penn fight. Even if BJ beats GSP, orcus is still not going to include him in any kind of p4p list just because he dislikes him
10/31/08 12:22 PM
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olafwd
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Another problem with P4P discussions is that the strength/weight ratio changes as you increase in size (ie strength goes up as a cross section, weight as volume). So for instance, the lightest weight divisions in Olympic lifting have guys lifting 3 times their body weight, while the heavy weights, though they lift more in absolute terms, are lifting 1.5 times their body weight.

In terms of fighting, this means that a good style for a light weight isn't necessarily going to be a good style for a heavyweight. This is a given in sports like boxing, wrestling and judo (talk to any coach and they'll go into great detail about what has to change), and its hard to see why it wouldn't carry over for MMA.

Examples are punching power (not many light weight boxers have one punch KO power, almost every heavyweight boxer does, because the ability to take a punch goes up slower than the ability to deliver), ground holds in judo (light weights find it very hard to hold each other down at the top levels, heavyweights find it relatively easy), agility (the footwork for a lightweight is going to be different than for a heavyweight).

So when you're comparing P4P style its not useful to imagine a 145 pounder fighting the same way if he was magically blown up to 245 pounds - his style would have to change because his strengh/weight ratio would change.
10/31/08 12:48 PM
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Kidcombo
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I'm always on the fence with this topic. 

Fedor is the man, however he needs to be more active.. Fighting once , occasionally twice a year is not my idea of what the best pfp fighter in the world should be doing to hold on to that title.  I think his management team sucks......Outside of Tim Syliva , Fedor hasn't fought a top 10 guy in almost 4 years and there are guys out there he could be fighting (ala Barnett, Randy, Arlovski,etc) .  It's hard for me to look at him as the best PFP fighter in the world when this is what we've had to deal with in regards to him.  You ask me this question even 2 years ago and I would say without question he is #1 but 4 years is a long ass time to go without fighting any real competition.  That's just my opinion. 

4/20/09 3:40 PM
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SKARHEAD
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Anderson's fights speak for themselves. He is awsome...but not the p4p anything. That's Dana White pushing his product...and when Anderson leaves the UFC he will say he was never that good in the 1st place.



fedor's victories and competition speak for themselves. You would never see him struggling against guys like Leites and Cote. PERIOD.
4/22/09 12:15 PM
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SKARHEAD
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orcus-Why not? Marquardt is more consistent than Crocop, as is Franklin...."--------------------------------------------------------------------Yes, against smaller, FAR less dangerous opponents. easy to be a world beater at that level....And prime Cro Cop would absolutely MURDER Marquat or Rich Franklin...I mean come on already, give it up.



"...Not to mention everyone -- including WB -- routinely talk about how thin the HW division is...."-------------------------------------It's all relative. The HW's would all STILL TRAINWRECK the entire MW division. LOL @ not understanding the importance of size and the very basic need for weight classes in the 1st place.....Again, you've never trained in ANYTHING a day in your life and BOY does it show.


"... If Anderson's opponents are the best guys in a better division, how do they become WORSE wins for Anderson?..."------------------------------------------Because they are still FAR inferior to Fedor's best opponents. Anderson would NEVER have beaten prime Cro Cop, Prime Noguiera, Mark Hunt, Semmy Schilt, Tim Sylvia, or Arlovski. PERIOD.....Meanwhile Fedor would have WRECKED ALL of Anderson's opponents, especially the one that Anderson looked ordinary or lost against (world beaters like Cote, Leites, Lee Murray, Travis Lutter and the dreaded Rio Chonan).


Fedor is no Chris Leben.
4/22/09 12:55 PM
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orcus
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 "I mean come on already, give it up."

Give it up? You're the one arguing with a 6 month old post.

OWNED



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