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UnderGround Forums >> Let's talk Steroids. Let's keep it real.


11/29/08 4:06 PM
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kidpresentable
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Edited: 11/29/08 4:06 PM
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Haven't read the entire thread but I will come back and read it when I have more time.

For what it is worth, here is my two cents. I have not taken steroids but do feel that steroids (as well as many other drugs) are a huge part of our sport. Steroids are prevalent will be prevalent sports so long a money is involved because athletes are always looking for an edge. Moreover, steroids are an even bigger part of our sport because mma demands that you put you body through punishment that it is not meant to absorb. I think random drug testing would help but that said help would be limited. Athletes will simply move to drugs that can't be tested. Ultimately, I don't really care if my opponent is on steroids and I am not. I don't feel like I have ever lost a fight because my opponent was stronger or able to train more often. I feel that physical gains accomplished through steroids are often offset by a mental dependence on the drug.

Nick "the goat" Thompson
11/29/08 4:07 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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Wovito, Now your a guy who is a role model, especially to kids. I'm serious. I respect the heck out of that. I'm sure it wasn't easy to say no. Especially being around dealers all the time and you being a college ball player. Good for you bro.
11/29/08 4:08 PM
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RaginRedneck169
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for later.


Thanks for your honesty Jason.
11/29/08 4:09 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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Oh ya, Let's not forget about the Depression. I almost forgot. So, you got your balls shrinking and depression. It's a real fun combination, let me tell ya.
11/29/08 4:11 PM
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Diego stole my name
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"Everything is about risk assessment, and the statistics for something like Advil I imagine fall within acceptable margins"

17000 people die every year from taking NSAIDs


So far nobody has died from taking steroids.


"what studies have been done to support claims that moderate usage is low-risk?"

There are many many studies done on steroids. Search pubmed

I believe there was a 20 week study with people on 600mg testosterone. Aside from acne, they suffered no side effects
11/29/08 4:12 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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Nick Thompson is another guy who is a role model. Thanks for your opinion Nick. Much Respect. Jason Reinhardt
11/29/08 4:14 PM
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irish_pride
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At my job and most others we can be randomly tested throughout the year, no reason mma shouldn't.

Despite the moral thoughts on Steroids in general, if it's against the policies and rules of your employer you shouldn't do it.

Besides, i know many people on steroids and for the most part they are just short cutting and taking "the easy way". They are lazy in ever perspective of their lives, always looking for shortcuts.

Except for probably a few percent of mma fighters that use them because they train so hard and need to recovery, most probably don't train to their fullest, eat properly or rest enough to see the benefits anyway.

If more people actually learned more about them before doing them and folllowing protocol, there wouldn't be thousands of people walking around with gyno and ill health.

Cycles that are 3 times too long, morons with no pct, people with 25% bodyfat using steroids which leads to the possibility of much worse sides, no eating plan and eating junk food and candy, etc.

I wish if people were going to do it, just learn about it as much as you can and know enough that you can develop your own cycle, without copying somone elses. If you can do that, you might be ready.

If not, we'll end up with tons of ex fighters dying of heart disease, strokes, liver damage, etc in the future.

Brad
11/29/08 4:15 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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Nick, Without naming any opponents, do you think with all the fights you have had, there's ever been one of your opponents who were juicing??
11/29/08 4:17 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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Wovito, "most of the critics have no idea how deep this goes" No they do not. Your exactly right.
11/29/08 4:20 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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Colosimo, LOL.
11/29/08 4:20 PM
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WoodenPupa
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"let's get back to talking about the original thread. Not about side effects."

It's all intertwined though...some will call steroids evil because the athletic commission bans them. Others because of the side effects. So we have to talk about them.

Surely you didn't stop because of the law, but because of the side effects. And this I think might be the case with every user who stops. The law is virtually irrelevant.

The ethical issue arises largely from whether the bad effects are perceived as inevitable. For if they are, then a person will perceive that the benefits come at the cost of various kinds of destruction (social, bodily) which cannot be undone.

Someone willing to endure broad-scale and long-term damage for short term gain will have an unfair advantage over those who are not willing to do this. The upshot being that, if you want to compete at the highest levels, you will have to be willing to pay a huge price.

If it were universally agreed that correct steroid usage entailed acceptable risks, then there would be no ethical issue. They would be viewed no differently than supplements.

So the ethical issue is inextricable from a discussion about the side effects.
11/29/08 4:22 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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Edited: 11/29/08 4:24 PM
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OK, your right. great points. It's a good thread, and it's a big part of our sport. Let's try to keep it going to learn.
11/29/08 4:26 PM
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Diego stole my name
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Jason Reinhardt - Diego, I can only tell you what i've experienced from the juice. If you do not take ANOTHER DRUG like an anti-estrogen blockers, more than likely your Nuts will shrink and you will have accelerated hair loss. Bitch tits as well. If you do take the anti-estrogen your chances decrease considerably. Anti-estrogens aren't the easiest to find all the time. We could talk about this until we are blue in the face. Nobody is going to convice me that Steroids are safe.


Anti-estrogens have nothing to do with losing your hair. Its caused by dihydrotestosterone aka DHT. It does not convert to aromatase so it is not related at all to estrogen levels.

Secondly anti-estrogen has nothing to do with stopping your nuts from shrinking. That is AFTER a cycle. Not during

What you are talking about is human chorionic gonadotropin. And that helps stop your nuts from shrinking (assuming they do shrink)during cycle

If you do not understand even these simple concepts then you are in no position to speak as an authority of what steroids will or wont do. Your experiences with them is not universal truth
11/29/08 4:26 PM
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WoodenPupa
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"There are many many studies done on steroids. Search pubmed"

Will do, thanks.
11/29/08 4:28 PM
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Shiloh
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Diego stole my name - 
Jason Reinhardt - Diego, I can only tell you what i've experienced from the juice. If you do not take ANOTHER DRUG like an anti-estrogen blockers, more than likely your Nuts will shrink and you will have accelerated hair loss. Bitch tits as well. If you do take the anti-estrogen your chances decrease considerably. Anti-estrogens aren't the easiest to find all the time. We could talk about this until we are blue in the face. Nobody is going to convice me that Steroids are safe.


Anti-estrogens have nothing to do with losing your hair. Its caused by dihydrotestosterone aka DHT. It does not convert to aromatase so it is not related at all to estrogen levels.

Secondly anti-estrogen has nothing to do with stopping your nuts from shrinking. That is AFTER a cycle. Not during

What you are talking about is human chorionic gonadotropin. And that helps stop your nuts from shrinking (assuming they do shrink)during cycle

If you do not understand even these simple concepts then you are in no position to speak as an authority of what steroids will or wont do. Your experiences with them is not universal truth
11/29/08 4:28 PM
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HuntingtonPUNK
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a fighter taking anabolics and fighting an opponent that does not is the problem, then it becomes cheating.
11/29/08 4:29 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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unfallenstar, If nothing more but concern for athletes health, i feel they should test for pain pills. Testing for pills is a joke though, because of the half life. It's so easy to get away with pain pills and beat a drug test. I know guys in the UFC doing it right now. Just another reason why random testing would be a great thing.
11/29/08 4:31 PM
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TheLuckyMilkMan
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perhaps should be legal for civilians and not for fighters because of regulations. should remain ilegal for fighters imo.

the line has to be drawn somewhere.

someone think fedor uses? not that i would be able to say either way for sure but i truly havent seen anything from him that makes me think he has. he faced the worst of the users.
11/29/08 4:33 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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Diego, I'm very familar with HCG, as you speak of. I was actually prescribed this along with the HGH. Do you know what exactly is HCG?? I'm also very familar when to take the anti-estrogens and at what point of the cycles to do so.
11/29/08 4:37 PM
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Bry Bry
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wovito-what happens when we realize that many of our favorite sports pros use performance enhancers??its called facing reality, and then it is left to us to take an OBJECTIVE view of those performance enhancers and decide whether or not it is worth it to us to take them...its all about the bad to good ratio...

the last thing anti-steroid folks should do is what reinhardt is doing, making blanket statements that are just not true...scare tactics do not work when it comes to getting kids to not use drugs..i hope to god our country wises up to that fact...our kids need to look up to us and TRUST us, and a smart kid will realize pretty quickly that we are full of shit when we tell them 'steroids will kill you, will make you go bald, they will make you angry' etc etc...they will look around and see their peers who are using and abusing steroids arent dropping dead, they arent bald with a case of raging bitch tits...then we have lost trust and they will turn elsewhere...

i have been around steroids for 10 plus years and i have rarely seen any of these harsh side effects people talk about..i know quite a few powerlifters that have used steroids for 20 plus years and they are healthier than yer average person...some of them have hairloss, but that is due to genetics not steroids directly..i have seen maybe 1-2 cases of roid rage but that was with guys who were knuckleheads to begin with..what i HAVE seen is depression, lethargy, irritability when people come off a cycle...many of them dont know how to do it right..plus, there is definitely addiction that goes with steroid use because lets face it, they work very well...
11/29/08 4:44 PM
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Diego stole my name
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Jason Reinhardt - Diego, I'm very familar with HCG, as you speak of. I was actually prescribed this along with the HGH. Do you know what exactly is HCG?? I'm also very familar when to take the anti-estrogens and at what point of the cycles to do so.


You dont seem very familiar with the subject when you write things like taking anti-estrogens to stop hairloss or testicular shrinkage

HCG is from the womans placenta. Its prescribed as a fertility medication. Steroid users take it because it mimicks the luteinizing hormone wich causes the testes to start producing testosterone
11/29/08 4:44 PM
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kidpresentable
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Jason Reinhardt - Nick, Without naming any opponents, do you think with all the fights you have had, there's ever been one of your opponents who were juicing??


I would bet money on it. I think the majority of fighters have used. So by default, it is likely that I have fought several fighters who have used. On top of that, a few opponents jump to mind where I think it is probable that they were using.
11/29/08 4:44 PM
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Jason Reinhardt
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Bry Bry, I don't think i ever used scare tactics? Please re-read. I also never once talked about death as you state. As I pointed out more than once, I can only tell of my experiences. hair loss, balls shrinking, depression, acne, bitch-tits, and aggressive behavior. If you don't think that's a fact, your dead wrong. (Again, i can only tell you and Kids my experiences) And by the way..I think i am more than qualified, and probably one of the only ones on this forum that was PRESCRIBED Human Growth Hormone as a test subject as a 10 yr. old child. (St. Louis Childrens Hospital) My brother and I both. So, i think i know a thing or 2 about Hormones.
11/29/08 4:45 PM
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WoodenPupa
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Good comments Wovito.

All man-made supplements and drugs are at bottom a clumsy form of nanotech.

The intentions through all of them are the same as they will be if we are able to realize the kind of far-reaching molecular/atomic engineering seen in Star Trek and so forth.

The ultimate idea being to fashion the body into anything the mind can conceive, within the bounds of physics. Achieving this would leave the idea of physical sports competition in the dust. The competition would in fact be between teams of physicists and engineers.

Any kind of bodily enhancement, no matter how primitive, creeps into this cyborg idea, which then opens the ethical doors of responsibility.

Our limited powers, as manifest by the natural bodies we have, are seen as a virtue by many because they align with the idea of limited power in general being a virtue.

Limitation avoids the confrontation with responsibility. If you are powerless, there are no ethical issues.
11/29/08 4:48 PM
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kidpresentable
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Edited: 11/29/08 4:53 PM
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Wovito - I think that's the most missed point. Say you DO have the skills to make it. What happens when you get to the show and you get your ass kicked because all of the guys with the same skills than you are stronger faster and can recover like they're 18 years old. What's your prize for sticking to the rules? Where's your face on a billboard. Where's your Hummer?


As I stated earlier, I don't think steroids make that much of a difference as to whether you win or lose. There are so many things that go into mma that it is just not as big an advantage as say track and field. Moreover, I think while you may not get a hummer, you get something better. You don't get any physical rewards when you correct the cashier for giving you $10 too much in change but you do get something much better imo.

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