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LEOGround >> Real training for cops


12/8/08 11:13 PM
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Shire
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KombatZoneMMA, President
 
For many years I have seen the different types of classes put on for LEO's to help with controlling offenders. Problem is, as I see it, most systems want to teach to make money, not really get down to the basic simple things that give cops the skills to handle the situation with minimal training or practice.

I know some will respond with "well i went to this course, and it was great". But, can that training be used for the 40 yo officer who does not train. If our DT instructors can not teach to the lowest common officer (skill wise) then the courses are only self serving.

Yes I have my system (researched for more than 12 years with trained fighters/cops). I am not here to sell it.

I want to know how many DT, now PT instructors really work to teach the older fat cop how to stay alive and win a fight.
12/8/08 11:17 PM
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Shire
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Edited: 12/08/08 11:17 PM
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KombatZoneMMA, President
Oh, i forgot, we know about those that wont train, so getting them to do simple techniques with minimal or no injury is best. The guys that workout and train are exempt. They probably dont really need the classes. Try getting your 18 year veteran officer on the mat once or twice a year for a class that they can see will really help them because they can do it! No funky BJJ or dynamic stuff, simple life saving reality based training.

let me hear you....
12/9/08 3:42 AM
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Tabmoc19
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Edited: 12/09/08 3:43 AM
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www.isrmatrix.org

Over 21 yrs in Law Enforcement, I've dealt with the whiners & the slackers, the small women & the even smaller men, and lots of old out-of-shape guys who breath heavy tieing their own shoes. Out of all the systems I have dealt with (which is several) this is the most functional to give someone who will only have minimal training. Test drive it with a certified instructor and you will understand why.
12/9/08 1:52 PM
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oblongo
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Is ISR still being offered?

When I go to their Web site I see this message:

Courses, affiliation, certification and requirements are being updated to better serve our growing demands. Please stay tuned. We will be implementing new course options shortly.
12/9/08 10:47 PM
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TacFighter
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22 plus years in LE, 25 years as in MA. BB in Karate & BJJ. I ran our training division for 5 years (still run the field training part) and we called it, teaching to the LCD (lowest common denominator) which is what we teach. But I must say that you need to give something to the 10-20% out there who really want to learn (speaking of in-service type training).

I have seen a lot of programs and I really think it comes down to the fundamental philosophy of understanding you are fighting as a LE and utilize all your assets. BJJ, Muay Thai, MMA, boxing skills have some great fundamentals to draw from and integrate into the curricula. I believe it comes down to having credible instructors from your staff. Cops/military are pretty critical of teachers and techniques. Especially if that person has no real understanding of police/military style encounters.

Just look at all the private martial arts instructors on the internet with claims they are all teaching police Swat teams, military and other special operational types to obtain credibility.
12/10/08 11:05 PM
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Tabmoc19
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oblongo - ISR is definitely still being offered. In fact, they are in the process of making it more available. Just this past year their cliental expanded to include some military special operations units and several new LE clients to include departments in other countries. In the past, there was very little advertisement and everything was by word-of-mouth. Look to see ISR grow even more in 2009 and a totally re-vamped website will be launched in January.

TacFighter - That is another reason I like ISR so much. Luis Gutierrez and Fletch Fuller are very particular on who they certify as instructors. It definitely is NOT a pay your money and get your certificate course. The integrity they maintain for their instructors speaks loads for the program.
12/11/08 9:35 AM
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FJJ828
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Edited: 12/11/08 9:37 AM
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NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C., Owner
Shire,

I feel your pain. I started teaching DT in my agency in 1998. As a MMA fan and like a lot of people, I believed that BJJ/MMA had all the solutions to police physical confrontations. I got my "foot in the door" so to speak, due to my knowledge of grappling when the topic of the class turned to ground fighting. Being trained primarily in Aikido or PPCT based programs, none of the other instructors had a clue. There was more than a little resentment from the old school and when the inevitable injuries started, so did the "I told you so" chorus.

I knew something was missing. DT was more than Gracie Basics + Wristlocks & Pressure Points, the way some will still try to tell you. There is an important psychological component that supports and enables physical skills. It does not matter how well you can shoot if you cannot get your gun out of the holster under intense stress. I found extremely valuable information that forever changed the way I trained from Tony Blauer.

As an instructor always refining the way I taught and still looking for fresh perspectives and ways to reach not only the young officers but also those approaching retirement, I was becoming increasingly critical of the BJJ model. The sport model was turning every training confrontation into a wrestling match where the tactics they were "learning" was not what I had intended. BJJ, Wrestling and MMA for cops was clearly not the answer. Too many techniques that were being forgotten or disgarded at the door or were flat out inappropriate to begin with.

Things finally came together for me when I met an instructor in South Florida. I remember when he was teaching a police tactics program at the time that was different in mechanics and philosophy from literally any program (and there were a lot of them) I had studied. The physical maneuvers were based upon sound principles found in Wrestling and BJJ but it was not Wrestling or BJJ. The system involved effective clinching and striking but was clearly not Muay Thai. Importantly, the elements worked together within the operational framework that police must use in their agencies and integrated into (didn't neccessarily replace) programs they were already using. Most importantly, the program could be practiced by officers of all physical abilities and skill levels and with progressive resistance.... with relative safety.

Now, for Use of Force trainers, safety usually means going slow motion and literally eliminating the chance that there students will inevitably find that spot on the mat where they will turn their ankle or tweak their shoulder, ending up on light duty and driving a desk. The idea of actually allowing the students to train under resistance was pretty ridiculous to me if we were to keep injuries down and avoid having training cancelled altogether. We were able to do it though... consistently, year after year, training 21 year old studs alongside those in their late 50's who had as much plastic and titanium in their bodies as Lance has on his bike.

My friend in South Florida proved that it can be done. You can push the envelope without crippling people and you can challenge them at the same time. Athletic training isn't just for studs. Students can experiment and problem solve and become legitimately confident through live training. New information can integrate into existing programs without unneccessary conflict.

The program is the ISR Matrix. My friend is Luis Gutierrez.

This is what I was looking for as an officer and a trainer.
12/11/08 5:25 PM
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Luis Gutierrez
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Thanks much Fletch and Tabmoc.

Oblongo,

Yes, we are still running courses but have intentionally kept to our existing course load for 2008 due to the increase in demand. We are currently undergoing large changes to match the demand for what we do and starting with our website and existing schedule. We will be creating quite a few more clips along with content available to all those who visit.

Come early 2009 our web site updates will be in place along with quite a few more options for those seeking instruction, affiliation or certification with the ISR. As Tabcom stated, we are working on three fronts now (LEO, Civilian and the Armed Forces) and have also started to branch out internationally.

-Luis

www.isrmatrix.org
12/11/08 8:49 PM
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Shire
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KombatZoneMMA, President
I hope I did not give the wrong impression, I have my system that is very strong for all LEO's, small and big.

Some of my creds;
7th Dan, 37 years exp.
1990-91 National Full Contact Trainer of Year (PKC)
Top Indiana Kickxoxing Team-5 National, 23 State Champs
Top Ten National Fighter/Master Division 96-97 season, PKC.
Asst. State Director of Kickboxing for PKC 1989-1998.
USA Boxing Coach/Official/Trainer.
25 years plus teaching cops,
Assisted in training Dan Severn a few years back
(he then started his DT program based on my info to him)
Started NHB matches in mid 90's in Ft. Wayne.
4 years assistant wrestling coach at my son HS.
Trainer of troops going overseas.

blah blah blah...

Anyway, I really want ot get my system out there, my videos have been out since 1995. Problem is, so much to do around here (I promote fights, President of local PAL club, train MMA fighters, and try to keep in shape when I have time, I cant get time to promote DPTS like it should be.

Any suggestions guys?
12/11/08 9:59 PM
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Shire
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Kyok;

I have trained troops at their stations, mass amounts at a time. I also train swat officers (the DT trainers) in my gym. A few of my students are now military trainers. In 1975 I was one of many Marines whom taught the LA Swat team on house assault/roof assaults and room clearence. I started teaching police departments in 1983. I became a certified police trainer through the academy BEFORE I graduated the academy (i was waived due to experience etc).
I graduated as Class President. I have been a cop for 18 years, working the streets and teaching loclas that WANT to train how to fight.
12/11/08 10:26 PM
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Shire
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Oh, forgot to mention I was a PPCT instructors for 9 years. I sent Mr. Siddle videos and documents backing up my techniques to be added (since many PPCT trainers liked what I offered), but they would not re-do their manuals.
12/11/08 11:09 PM
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FJJ828
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NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C., Owner
Shire are you or have you ever been active LEO?
12/12/08 12:21 AM
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Shire
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FJJ828

I am, have been active LEO for over 16 years with my department, two years reserve before that. I am academy certified trainer since 1991, MA Master instructor with National honors for training and competing-blah blah blah.

I was checking here to see how many other trainers have problems with lazy cops and management when it comes to training GOOD/REAL techniques for officers.

What pissed me off was having a guy come into my PAL club to teach local cops a seminar, and this dude;
A-was never a cop
B- has never competed in fighting
C- had no real credentials to show for his company, other than he had a web site!
12/12/08 2:20 AM
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effinggoof
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This is one of may favourite topics.

First of all I would like to offer my sincere admiration to the 1% of LE DT instructors who try and teach good stuff.

The other 99% of your co workers are ladder climbing buddy fuckers who love instructing recruits, who they can bully and abuse in a way that would get them shitkicked on the street or cellblock...which is why they ran so far away from real criminals.

I have nearly abandoned all hope about the cheesy pyramid scheme that is DT...I go to a gym and train with coaches whose professional credability is based on winning fights, not avoiding liability.
12/12/08 2:22 PM
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Shire
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OH GOD, that WORD...Liability! I get so pissed at department heads worrying about the possibility of someone not doing this or that.

We train firearms about 12 hours a year, every year, pay for ammon, overtime etc. Yet we have not shot anyone around in in over (oops exepct one occasion) twenty years.

We man handle and arrest offenders every week, but no mandated training for physical tactics each year. Well one local department has mandated yearly training for their officers. Problem is...they get these web site masters to come in and the officers dont like the training, because its bullshit. When I try to get them to consider my program, (which they they had basics on years ago) they dance around and say they want all kinds of new stuff.

New stuff...shit they got to get the REAL STUFF down first. One of the officers that took this last program complained (and rightfully so) that they had to go through hours of bullshit practice on moves they can not remember to do, and wont work as a police officer. Ya cant teach a cop to choke someone uncounscious and stab them with your duty knife.

I could go on, but damn it!
12/14/08 9:47 PM
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TacFighter
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the old phrase....you're never an expert in your own backyard.....fits so appropriately in many agencies. Took me almost 7 years to intro a ground curricula because everyone at first didnt think it was necessary.

Shire, I agree that most upper managers throw out the "liabilty" word as a catch all without a hint of reality. I dont have the problem any longer at my location since i teach head up the program, but it was a long road to get there.

Biggest issue, as you stated in the intro, is that most of these fat a$% dont want to train and could care less. They are truly fortunate that most people truly dont want to kill them during physical encounters.
12/14/08 11:14 PM
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Shire
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Tacfighter;

Good words. Yeah, when I leave and go about 100 miles and carry my briefcase, I am a well paid expert!

But I designed my program, the basic 4 hrs, so that even fat officers can do the needed things to stay alive during a confrontation. With Meth offenders, any contact can turn ugly. This is my bitch; depts need to have a program that allows there fat/old officers a proven tested method. This fancy BJJ stuff is not for street officers. We (DT guys) do that so we have more techniques and to build on (and some fun shit to do to each other).

Oh well, I have had a good time chatting with guys here. Anyone have an organization that wants to check my stuff out and maybe implement it into theirs let me know.
12/21/08 7:00 PM
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TacFighter
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Shire, Same here. we have a basic 4 hour currcula that is geared toward beginners and then some advanced classes that are "electives" for those who want to take them.

I also teach BJJ class (gi & no gi) at our department free for all LEO in the area. If anyone comes down to Orlando shoot me an email and bring your gi to the Sat. morning class. Its a great time and lots of great people who train with us too.

take care
12/24/08 11:25 PM
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Shire
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KombatZoneMMA, President
I did some research on isrmatrix. I would like to talk to Luis.

Please e-mail me:
rwduhamell@yahoo.com
12/25/08 8:22 PM
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nowaydo
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Fletch,

Great post. As I was reading it, I thought"...that sounds like ISR!"

Then I got to the end. I was right!
1/8/09 7:45 PM
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Luis Gutierrez
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Just a note to mention that the February 2009 issue of S.W.A.T. has an artcile on the ISR Matrix and should be out in some places already.
1/9/09 8:03 PM
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Shire
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ttt
1/13/09 9:44 PM
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nowaydo
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ttt
1/15/09 11:10 PM
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Shire
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KombatZoneMMA, President
Good chat, keep it going please...

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