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LegalGround >> Attn: Gannon


1/2/09 9:42 AM
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bflex
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I became a defense attorney because, at the time, I legitimately hated the police. As time has gone on, I have become friends with quite a few. Hell, the best man at my wedding is now a cop. Love him like a brother.

At anyrate, having been on the receiving end of an unnecssary police ass kicking, IN BOSTON, I had a question. I will admit that there are times where I feel that you guys should get away with just beating the fuck out of people. Example: If a guy spits in your face, he gets beat down. I have no beef with that.

Here are the questions: Do you think that the cops who have the reputation for roughing people up are just under an enormous amount of pressure and snap or do you think most of them are just assholes who somehow passed the psych exam? Do the good officers try to avoid these guys? What is the general opinion of the average cop regarding these situations?

BTW, I did not spit on the officer, he asked me my name after looking at my DL and I said "Chris Fucking Cringle, read the license asshole." It went downhill from there.
1/2/09 1:56 PM
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goku
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did u like the movie the departed
1/2/09 6:25 PM
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Dojosensei
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I'm a firm believer that cops should, in certain situations, still be able to torture someone for information. IE...Casey Anthony situation. We KNOW you know where the fucking kid was at, instead we played the "nice legal game" for months and months. Fuck that, give me 5 minutes behind closed doors, she'll tell what she knows. But I see the bad side of that as well. What if you misread it.
1/2/09 8:25 PM
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bflex
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Coerced interogations seldom produce reliable information. So sayeth me and JOHN MOTHER FUCKIN' MCCAIN!
1/2/09 11:15 PM
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Dojosensei
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Well the body is either where she left it or it isn't. If it isn't, we come back and torture her again. This continues until we get what we want.

Remember, today's society is nowhere near as strong as what yesterday's is. People roll on people right and left with little to no effort
1/3/09 12:02 AM
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bflex
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That case right now is a defense attorney's dream case. High profile, easy win if you get a non-biased jury. Fact: you have to show intent to get a murder conviction. Fact: they can't even show how the girl died. Fact: Casey Anthony was in jail when the area where the body was found was searched initially. Fact: The body was not there at the time. Fact: At no point in time was Casey Anthony realeased from jail or not under constant supervision after that site was searched. Fact: The body was moved there by another individual after the search.

The mere fact that the SA is trying to trump up some charges on this girls brother so he will "flip" screams to me that they have no fucking case. Me thinks she gets found guilty on a few charges, but not murder. She might do a few years.
1/3/09 2:42 AM
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thembones
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Dojosensei - Well the body is either where she left it or it isn't. If it isn't, we come back and torture her again. This continues until we get what we want.

Remember, today's society is nowhere near as strong as what yesterday's is. People roll on people right and left with little to no effort


So we should go around torturing people whenever we need to know something. So how much evidence do we need before we get to do it? Who gets to weigh the evidence? Does someone's life have to be in danger? How much torture do we use, do we go medieval on their ass? Does it depend on what they're accused of? How long do we torture someone before we decide they don't actually have the info we need? What if we get information and find out its false?

Do you actually objectively believe this is a good idea? Not that I don't understand where the sentiment comes from...
1/3/09 3:58 PM
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bflex
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Stop hijacking my thread you fucks!
1/3/09 8:01 PM
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Dojosensei
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Tell you what. I've witnessed torture first hand by law enforcement. I've witnessed it from the military as well. At no time, did I ever disagree with it. Now, you get someone that STEALS something, fuck no, you don't torture them. If you are trying to find a missing person and you have something like the Anthony case going on where mommy is lying constantly, yeah, midieval works for me. You do whatever you have to do at that point to find the person. I believe there was a missing persons case in Michigan years back where the attorneys and law enforcement said they did everything they could and really pushed the law to find the kid.

So do I believe that you should allow torture in missing persons cases that are as clear as it is in the Anthony case, FUCK YES. Do I believe in torture in other instances, FUCK YES. Criminals have TOO MANY rights and are PROTECTED more than the victims.
1/3/09 11:13 PM
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bflex
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Seriously, I am going to start a thread called why torture is ok. I want you to continue this discussion there. I will join in! It sounds like fun. However, this thread was for Gannon and other posters interested in his opinion. He is probably out hugginng criminals right now and not torturing them.
1/4/09 3:13 AM
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Shaz
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When you said you "legitimately hated cops", did you mean that you really hated them, or that you had a legitimate reason for it? Because if it's the latter, I think that's foolish. So many people nowadays like to hate on the police, because it's easy, because there's been a lot of negative press lately, because it's part of being on the bangwagon.

Sure there are bad cops out there, but I think they are few and far between. I think people in my line of work deal with the police more than anyone else, and the vast majority of the hundreds of cops and detectives I've met and worked with are good people doing a very difficult job. A job made more difficult in recent years due to a public backlash against the actions of a very few bad apples, and the marketing and media blitz of people like Al Sharpton.

People used to respect the police, now they're treated like the enemy.

I'll give you an example of the crap these guys have to go through. I'm starting a trial next week where two cops went to a house in response to a call of a disturbance. They had no idea whether a crime was committed, no idea who lived there, they were just responding to a call to see if everything was alright. An 18 year old kid answers the door and starts cursing at the cops, saying "Fuck you pigs, get the fuck out of here, I don't have to talk to you, go away" etc. etc., he then shoved one of the cops off the stoop. The other cop tried to grab him to place him under arrest and the kid punched him in the face causing a fracture. It ended up taking 3 cops to control this kid (who was drunk and on drugs) and place him in handcuffs.

At no time did any of the police strike him in any way or mistreat him in any way (there are multiple civilian witnesses who saw the whole thing and said that police were professional the entire time - one witness even said they seemed "too relaxed" and was surprised they weren't harder on him).

The cop who was injured missed a few weeks of work while recuperating, and to this day (almost two years later) still has some pain in the area where the injury was.

After the incident, the family of the defendant posted flyers around the community complaining of police brutality and listed the names of all the police involved, there were protests, an IA investigation (all the cops were cleared), but proves the point that these guys have to deal with a LOT of shit. Yes, it's part of the job to deal with assholes. Most criminals are assholes. But it shouldn't have to be part of the job to have to deal with an unfriendly and unappreciative public, who are supposed to be the recipients of the protecting and serving. It contributes to a sort of "siege" mentality which I think goes a long way towards making these cops "snap".

At the end of the day, they're just men and women doing a job like anyone else, they're human beings with regular lives and families and concerns like everyone else.

Maybe some cop was having a tough time, maybe his kid was sick or his mortgage payment was late, maybe his wife was in the hospital or maybe she just left him, he's trying to do his job, maybe it's the very end of a long shift and he asked some punk what his name was and got the response "Chris Fucking Cringle, read the license asshole."

-Shaz!
1/4/09 6:09 PM
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bflex
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Shaz - the reason that I hated the police was as follows:

I got in minor incidents throughout my early life. Any interaction with a cop, I usually deserved. When I transferred to the Southern Baptist College where I graduated from, I was on my best behavior in my entire life. Even now! Nevertheless, it seemed like there were about 3 or 4 of the local police officers who rode my ass for every little thing. I have no idea why they had it out for me, but they did. Eventually, I started responding in kind. I figured, "what the fuck? If they are going to arrest me or cite me anyway, I might as well fuck with them back." So I did and it became a vicious little circle.

Eventually, it got dead serious at the end and I ended up having to leave the town. Jail was becoming a revolving door for me, in and out. My wife's safety was at issue and they refused to do anything about it. When I did, I got arrested again.

The basics of the last incident were: Dipshit A threatened my wife. My told the police. Police didn't do a fucking thing. I confronted dipshit A and called him a pussy and blew him a kiss. He went to the police and they drove him down to the magistrates office to get a warrant for my arrest.

Bflex gets out on bail and gets to ass kickin'. Fortunately, dipshit A couldn't identify the ass kicker(s) so Bflex didn't get arrested again and his bond didn't get revoked. Trail ends with not guilty verdict and bflex and co. finish the ass kickin'. Warrant # 2 issued as Bflex is on the highway up to Mass. to be with wife. Warrant recalled after 90 days pursuant to statute.

Although the Boston cop threw the first punch, I did need my ass kicked that night. I was out of control. No hard feelings there.
1/7/09 5:27 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 01/07/09 5:33 PM
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bflex - .

At anyrate, having been on the receiving end of an unnecssary police ass kicking, IN BOSTON...

...BTW, I did not spit on the officer, he asked me my name after looking at my DL and I said "Chris Fucking Cringle, read the license asshole." It went downhill from there.
"

i thought you said it was an "unnecessarry" ass kicking?





















J/K, great question, will answer this when i have the time to give it the answer it deserves.
1/8/09 8:59 AM
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bflex
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Well, the unnecessary part was just kinda bait. I didn't technically do anything to legally justify an ass kicking so in that sense it was unnecessary. A better phrase would have been legally unjustified. However, my attitude kinda sucked. I had multiple interactions with the police that night. I was a little out of control.

There are no hard feelings about it. A smack would have done just fine. The story actually ends up kinda funny, but I'll save it for later.
1/9/09 7:43 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 01/09/09 7:58 PM
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bflex - 
Here are the questions: Do you think that the cops who have the reputation for roughing people up are just under an enormous amount of pressure and snap or do you think most of them are just assholes who somehow passed the psych exam? Do the good officers try to avoid these guys? What is the general opinion of the average cop regarding these situations?



interesting question, i'm going to present a few alternative views about it, not all of them mine.

there are certainly are a few that are "psychos that somehow passed the psych exams". BTW - psych exams are only capable of catching stupid psychos (some of the time), not smart ones.

and usually if someone "snaps" because of pressure, they probably shouldn't have passed the psych exam either. if you can't handle stress without lashing out at others, you probably shouldn't be doing this job.

there are some that do it because they believe it's the most (or only) effective way to do the job, and they are deeply committed to getting the bad guys/protecting the neighborhood (especially if they live there)/doing "The Job" etc.

Do you remember the old joke about using Self Defense in a Homicide case in Texas?

"All you have to prove is two things, that the man needed killing, and that you were the instrument that God chose to do it."

guys might not want to be around it, but nobody would look down on them too badly as long as it was justice ( about 99% of the time historically).

for a little perspective, i'm going to go all the way back to old English Common Law. The Sheriff had the right of "Low Justice" - a right to give corporal punishment (anything short of death), to be administered on the spot to maintain order. this tradition has continued unbroken (watered down 99%) until the present day. for context, no society has EVER maintained order without a measure of "Low Justice". I'm part of the first generation of cops to ever even attempt to maintain a civil society without it. it's a bold experiment, but it hasn't even yet been proven to work.

"A civilized society is a lot like hot dogs, everyone loves the taste, but nobody wants to see how it's made."

i don't do any "Street Justice", but i have exceptional skills, temperment and Command Presence (i'm huge and scary looking) which makes my job a lot easier. there also many officers that are more effective than i that do things differently than i do.

a quote from Gforce that may help illustrate what i'm talking about.

Gforce - A guy I know was a New York City cop who retired in the early 1990s.

He told a story about walking foot patrol one day only to see a thug strolling down the street, breaking the radio antenna off every car he passed.

It's not like the perp was even taking revenge upon someone who wronged him--he was just being a menace to society to show off in front of his friends.

The cop took the dickhead by surprise, spun him around and grabbed him by the shoulders. The guy thought he was going to get cuffed. Instead, the cop wound up and KICKED HIM IN THE ASS AS HARD AS POSSIBLE.

The perp ran for it, with the cop in pursuit, punting him in the ass every three feet for a couple of blocks.

Instead of being the cool guy to his friends, our vandal was humiliated.

I think that the interests of society were well served by this type of policing. After looking like a complete dick in front of his friends, I doubt the guy pulled that type of shit ever again.

If the guy were arrested, even if he were convicted, he would have paid a $50 fine at most. Fat chance of the system having him make any restitution to the people whose property he destroyed. Fatter chance of him being deterred from future acts.

If this happened today, the cop would have faced criminal charges.

Point being: societal norms about what constitutes "police brutality" in 21st century America have changed to the point that the definition does not square with what is considered brutal in pretty much any other part of the world or even what was accepted in this country 20 years ago.


the quality of the justice you got from "Street Justice" was often better than the quality of justice you got from the courts. often better for the suspect too. nowadays, people get arrested for much more minor things (i have to arrest people for simple high school fights now) and put into the "The System", get records that prevent gainful employment etc.
1/9/09 7:58 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 01/09/09 8:07 PM
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edited because *Jack Nicholson voice* "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"
1/10/09 12:15 PM
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bflex
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To paraphrase your above statement regarding the car situation, I have always said "sometimes the court system impeads justice."

Sometimes smacking the shit out of a punk instead of an arrest will get the message accross without putting the kid into the system and fucking up his future. Agreed. However, some cops do seem to take it too far and too often. Those are the types that I am refering to.
4/18/09 6:37 PM
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Dcastillo
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Cops in Miami are actually pretty reasonable, if they beat your ass they wont take you in if you agree not to try to snitch on them in exchange for them letting you go.

Ive seen it happen 3x with Miami Beach Police
4/18/09 6:39 PM
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Dcastillo
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Depends on the circumstances though also, in all three times I saw it, it was because cops jumped in to break up a drunken rumble and they pretty much ended up joining the rumble kicking everyones ass. Those that were KO'd were held till shit was figured, then let go. This was during the time I worked as a doorman at a club.
4/18/09 7:43 PM
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bflex
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BULLSHIT COPS IN MIAMI ARE REASONABLE. Do you know that in 5 years of cases down there I never saw one search warrant. That's right! Everybody had the consent beat out of them. One of my boys has been at the PD's office in Miami for 15 years. We've talked about this. In 15 years at the PD's office, he has never seen a search warrant either.
4/18/09 9:38 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Dcastillo - Cops in Miami are actually pretty reasonable, if they beat your ass they wont take you in if you agree not to try to snitch on them in exchange for them letting you go.

Ive seen it happen 3x with Miami Beach Police


i understand what you're talking about, but i'm not sure you're giving the proper interpretation. if you have to use force, the safest thing you can do BY FAR is arrest them. you're opening yourself up to litigation by "un-arresting" them. if you're inclined to give someone a break after the brawl is broken up, you want to make sure they aren't going to stab you in the back.

"You can't give an asshole a break" - Old Cop Saying
4/19/09 6:45 PM
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bflex
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Gannon - Seriously, Metro-Dade & Miami PD are the fucking worst. There is no such thing as the 4th amendment down there.
4/21/09 6:33 PM
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Dcastillo
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Bflex, are you talking about MBPD or MDPD or both.

MDPD and shit even the BSO, are assholes (not all but the majority).Your right, if you dont give consent they dont care, my approach if I know im about to have a negative contact with them is just to make their job as easy/quick as possible, its worked so far. Maybe I should have been specific and said MIAMI BEACH cops are reasonable.


And you havent seen shit, till you deal with Hialeah's PD.

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