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SoldierGround >> Redcoats vs modern day USA Marines


1/3/09 9:50 PM
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Frogs
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How about 100 modern day U.S. marines vs. 100 werhmacht german infantry soldiers? Again nothing mechanized. Even with their standard issue karabiner 5 shot bolt-action rifles that would be no cakewalk.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vggt8aRjgVE&feature=related
1/3/09 10:05 PM
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KlingKiteMayor
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The british were also never taught to aim their weapons. How would they hit anything?
1/3/09 10:53 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Squatdog - 
sourcheese - grenades launchers would cause massive moral damage on a the box formation.

Redcoats would have to have a damn smart general that realizes that the box would lose. Dont see that happening though because its ingrained in them to fight in box formation.

If the redcoats had a progressive smart as fuck general and officers that could keep men marching when moral is shit... marines would have a hard time. (of course the generals and officers woudnt last long to the accuracy of a marine)

If the redcoats didnt have the ideal leaders, it would be an utter slaughter.


LOL...no.

Riflemen in particular fought in a skirmishing order exactly the same as today



and rifleman made up less than 1% of their force, because their rifles were even shittier weapons than their muskets.
1/3/09 10:56 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Squatdog - 
sourcheese - grenades launchers would cause massive moral damage on a the box formation.

Redcoats would have to have a damn smart general that realizes that the box would lose. Dont see that happening though because its ingrained in them to fight in box formation.

If the redcoats had a progressive smart as fuck general and officers that could keep men marching when moral is shit... marines would have a hard time. (of course the generals and officers woudnt last long to the accuracy of a marine)

If the redcoats didnt have the ideal leaders, it would be an utter slaughter.


LOL...no.

Riflemen in particular fought in a skirmishing order exactly the same as today and the main reason for the tight square was to defend against cavalry.

The grenades wouldn't have anywhere near the impact of the massed artillery deployed in the Napoleonic Wars (for example).


the Napoleonic Wars were after the Revolution War. and yes, massed artillery did tend to kick the shit out of these armies quite badly, until they learned to adapt.
1/3/09 11:04 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Squatdog - A bayonet charge from a ridiculous number like that would be unstoppable, not to mention the Redcoats would roll up their hundreds of artillery pieces and shower the Marines with grapeshot.


grapeshot has a short range, how would the brits roll their guns that close, (with no horses)?

Squatdog - A bayonet charge from a ridiculous number like that would be unstoppable


a bayonet charge? from 2 miles away? with all of their leaders dead? into a forest, against enemies they can't even see (marines ain't going to stand out in the open to get slaughtered).

surrender was looked at much differently in the 18th century. they would be throwing up the white flags in short order.
1/4/09 12:38 AM
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White347LX
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Oh fuck this, you can't go back and say you meant only basic infantry. That's gay as two guys fucking.

Let it stand at 100 Marines and any equipment they can support.
1/4/09 12:49 AM
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KlingKiteMayor
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^^Agreed

Otherwise it's a game of how do you handicap 100 marines to make it a fair fight against 120,000 British soldiers
1/4/09 1:07 AM
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White347LX
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TheHumanTornado - Are the Marines receiving smallpox vaccinations prior to tangling with this 18th century army?


I bet that's one of the 935,201 shots we get in basic training. You get another pharmacy installed in your blood system when you go overseas, too.
1/4/09 1:21 AM
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PaxRomain
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LOL @ the nerds on this thread that expect the redcoats to be a zombie army that fearlessly attacks a force whose capacity for destruction is far beyond anything they've seen. Stop playing your little RTS games; these are real people, not mindless units on a screen. The marines would win this the way many significantly smaller, vastly superior military forces have beat primitives in the past: psychology.

As GC pointed out, a guy with a six-shot revolver can control a room of people; he couldn't if they had no survival instinct.

The first few waves of redcoats would be slaughtered so badly without inflicting a single marine casualty that it would fatally affect the army's morale.
1/4/09 1:23 AM
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Squatdog
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[and rifleman made up less than 1% of their force, because their rifles were even shittier weapons than their muskets.

...and loose order ranks were used extensively in the New World starting from the Siege of Quebec, so it's not like advancing in skirmishing order was totally unheard of.

a bayonet charge? from 2 miles away? with all of their leaders dead? into a forest, against enemies they can't even see (marines ain't going to stand out in the open to get slaughtered)

LOL...yes, a bayonet charge by 110,000 soldiers against 100. There is literally no way the Marines could possibly win in this fantasy scenario even if they had magic guns which regenerated bullets.

Incidently, I had no idea M4s could hit anything anywhere close to two miles away.

the Napoleonic Wars were after the Revolution War. and yes, massed artillery did tend to kick the shit out of these armies quite badly, until they learned to adapt.

Uhhhhh...massed ranks of infantry were used well into the American Civil War, so I don't see what you're driving at here.

1/4/09 3:02 AM
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hubris
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White347LX - Oh fuck this, you can't go back and say you meant only basic infantry. That's gay as two guys fucking.

Let it stand at 100 Marines and any equipment they can support.


you can't edit the original poll

the picture is pretty obvious though ain't it?
1/4/09 3:11 AM
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Dreamer420
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Ok, hold on.
"can't edit the poll so I'll have to clarify. Only weapons, ammo, food, supplies that the troops can carry with them into battle. No lines of communication. That's it."

First off, no supply lines right? All soldiers are infantry right?

All soldiers only carry what they would normally carry into battle on their backs correct?

Brits win this by the sheer fact that 100 marines do not carry enough firepower as light infantry to take out 112,000 unarmed zombies, let alone well trained, battle hardened imperial british marines.

There is alot of factors left out of this too.

Where is the battle taking place? Is this open field? Urban? Forest?

Is this an agreed upon meeting place for battle? An ambush? Is someone defending a hill or fort?

Do the marines have pitbulls?

Are they game?
1/4/09 3:15 AM
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hubris
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-no lines of communications

-only what they can bring into battle with them

-you can consider various battle fields situations

-Marines can have pitbulls if they can carry them into battle

-whether they're game is up to you
1/4/09 3:17 AM
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Plumbata
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Wars are not about single battles but controlling areas. While 100 marines will dominate the single area they are in they can't possibly hold as much as the 112,000 redcoats. In the long run the 100 marines would die.

Then again as history has shown if the 100 marines could get local allies then they could possibly win. A handful of Spanish conquered the Aztecs but not without a ton of help from local tribes who hated their Aztec masters.

For example, if 100 modern day marines showed up during the revolutionary war then the Americans would have had a much easier time winning (psychological advantage esp by augmenting local forces).

Just for my own knowledge how many marines/support people and crew does it take to support 1 Abrams tank, or 1 Apache helicopter? I think with 100 people you could only support like 4 tanks or 2 helicopters or something.
1/4/09 3:20 AM
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Dreamer420
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I like how you guys are talking about psychology.

First of all, I assumed this fight was to the death for everyone but we can talk psychology.

Imagine 100 soldiers looking across a battlefield at 112,000.
1/4/09 3:27 AM
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Plumbata
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Simple math says each marine must take out (kill, wound, demoralize to the point that they stop fighting) 1120 redcoats.
1/4/09 3:38 AM
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nottheface
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100 marines in the Revolutionary war could split into roughly 10 teams and spread out across the colonies. Each team would be able to gather a strong militia, expecially after the locals saw a show of force from the marines. Imagine a garrison getting picked off over the course of a night. Or a seemingly safe general getting hit by grenades and having his honor guard mowed down by machine gun fire.

The Brits would respond in force, and would assume the marines to be a MUCH larger force. A small, fast moving band could give the Brit force the run around almost indefinately. Picking them off, showing the locals that the Brits could be defeated. The marines would be able to buy time for the Americans to train a large force and when time for a decisive engagement occured, they'd be able to hit decisively. One light machine gun would be able to crumble the flank of any redcoat advance.
1/4/09 3:45 AM
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Plumbata
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Edited: 01/04/09 3:48 AM
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Basically the circumstances will drive the answer. If 100 marines showed up in Britain and the British knew there were only 100 marines and the 100 marines didn't have any local support then it is a different story.

Now 100 Space Marines vs. 112,000 Redcoats is a totally different story....
1/4/09 3:50 AM
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Squatdog
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LOL...10 Marines teleport into a hostile country with only what they can carry, sticking out like sore thumbs and with no training in counter-revolutionary warfare whatsoever.

Why yes, that would work!
1/4/09 4:03 AM
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Plumbata
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Cortes with a force of 100 sailors, 530 soldiers (including 30 crossbowmen and 12 harquebusiers), a doctor, several carpenters, at least eight women, and 16 horses defeated the Aztecs which numbered in the millions which included over 100,000 soldiers. The Aztecs were the dominant military force of their time and area. Cortes and his force surely stuck out like a sore thumb too.

But he won mainly through disease, politics (esp the kidnapping of the god king), and using local tribes who hated the aztecs.
1/4/09 4:11 AM
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Timbo
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Dreamer420 - I like how you guys are talking about psychology.

First of all, I assumed this fight was to the death for everyone but we can talk psychology.

Imagine 100 soldiers looking across a battlefield at 112,000.


Imagine when the 102,000 see 10,000 of their comrades die before they get within musket range of the 100...

You think they're volunteering for the second wave, or are the dropping their muskets and running for the hills?
1/4/09 4:14 AM
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WrestlingSucks
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If you take an open field and place the marines and brits together, it's all over for the marines.

But, if you simply sent 100 marines with everything they could carry to that time period to wage war on those soldiers, they would have at least a fifty, fifty shot.

Land mines and grenades alone could do insane damage to their numbers. Night vision would make it nearly impossible for the Brits to stand a chance for about 8 hours of the day.
1/4/09 4:32 AM
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Timbo
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ksac - Weapon jams and failures due to bad weather conditions and poor upkeep would allow redcoats into range long before they lost 10000 of their men. 112000 guns > 100 guns


Why are you assuming bad weather conditions? Why are you assuming poor weapons upkeep from Marines?

You really think US Marines would be stupid enough to allow 112,000 musketeers to advance to within 100 feet before deciding to pack up their shit and withdraw to a new defensive position?

Marines have got the range to pick off the officers and NCOs well before any line of musketeers is within firing range. Who exactly is directing the firing line at that point in time?

The fact is the Brits would be lucky to get 1% of their muskets within range of the Marines, and that 1% would be dead, wounded or fleeing for their lives, pretty quickly.
1/4/09 4:41 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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ksac - 

You've got it all wrong. What you failed to mention is that the marines have been terrorizing the locals for years. No one wants to help them! In fact, the locals would rise up against the marines while the 112,000 redcoats kept the overwhelmed marines busy. Remember this long before the Declaration of Independence and low weapons maintenance has crippled the marine's fire power.


the poll explicitly states that it is the army of the Revolutionary War, which took place AFTER the Declaration of Independence, not "long before".

and no where is there mention (or reason for) marines terrorizing locals. if you want to start your own war poll, feel free, but don't jack the thread.
1/4/09 5:04 AM
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DevilDawg
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Edited: 01/04/09 5:11 AM
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I was an enlisted man so and I got out a lance cooley, so I probably don't know what I am talking about, but these ares a few things I would do if I was stuck with a hundred of my compadres in the colonial war.

1.) Recruit the locals to help fight, and recruit an experienced officer experienced in training people to fight in that type of war. I would get someone who either has beef with England, US Allie, or neutral but can be persuaded with money perhaps someone from Eastern Europe, Germany or France to help train these soldiers, and those soldiers would turn around and go back to thier units and train their people.


2.) Because the Marines cant carry enough ammo to fight head on. I would only use our fire power on hit and run ambushes. I would avoid ambushing grunt battalions unless its through a funnel and were on high ground otherwidse I would focus mainly on thier resupplies units.


3.) During skirmishes I would keep the Marines out of site, and thier job would be to start dropping some steel rain (mortars) once they get in thier formation. I would have everyone also picking off officers, cavalry, and artellery from several hunderds of meters away.

4.) If we have any form of communications with the Colonial Navy or merchant ships friendly to our cause I would information to launch Dragons and mortars at Royal Navy ships before they can even get close enough to shore.


5.) I would also start using Vietnam style field expedient booby traps like pungi sticks, trip wires, controlled fires to harrass and slow British movement towards the fight.


6.) I would also use psychological warfare when fighting the brits as well. If we knew before hand where and who were are fighting you have to take into account that people in those days were very superstitious.I would bring things that normally we normally wouldnt bring with us on a modern battlefield. I would play shit like the beginning of Iron Maidens "Number of the Beast" to play on some loud ass speakers during abmushes. I would also bring lots of crazy Halloween make up and masks.


Imagine the fear in the officers eyes when he looks through a telescope and some dude in Freddy Krueger Halloween make up is shooting things that go boom and is just lighting up his platoon, or using scare crows with a realistic mask in front a road at an ambush site.

If a bunch of German Soldiers ran away in Bellue Woods, because of the fear of Tuffel houndens, imagine the shock factor it would bring to see a bunch of demons using technology that they have never seen before with a military group 200 years earlier.

These guys would think thier fighting the devils Army, and Im sure a good number with run back with thier tail between thier legs.

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