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1/7/09 11:53 AM
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Subadie
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I dont have a year to finish Democracy in America, but I am looking for a quote that succinctly and memorably reflects his view of the importance of equality of status, vis vis freedom, in a democracy. Anyone ?
1/8/09 1:06 AM
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Tahiti Bo
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 "Muhammad professed to derive from Heaven, and he has inserted in the Koran, not only a body of religious doctrines, but political maxims, civil and criminal laws, and theories of science. The gospel, on the contrary, only speaks of the general relations of men to God and to each other - beyond which it inculcates and imposes no point of faith. This alone, besides a thousand other reasons, would suffice to prove that the former of these religions will never long predominate in a cultivated and democratic age, whilst the latter is destined to retain its sway at these as at all other periods."
1/8/09 1:08 AM
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Tahiti Bo
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 "I studied the Quran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. As far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion more to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself."
1/27/09 6:34 PM
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Subadie
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Interesting. My first thought was that you were an whacko, as these types tend to find brief attraction to philosophy boards, and did not respond to you. I thought this, as of course your comment is completely unresponsive to the request (as so often happens with whackos).

Then I looked again at your comment, and thought: "that's a pretty coherent and interesting thought for a whacko to be expressing." Lo and behold, it is in fact attributed to Tocqueville. Cool.

Regardless, if anybody has a quote on the importance of equality in the functioning of a democracy, I'd still find it useful and would appreciate it.
1/27/09 9:50 PM
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Tahiti Bo
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Edited: 04/07/09 11:25 PM
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Not everyone that you don't understand is a whacko.  They do have to do with democracy...

Some folks are just smarter than you.  
3/6/09 3:43 PM
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GaryG
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Tahiti Bo - Not everyone that you don't understand is a whacko.

Some folks are just smarter than you. 


And the second part of your comment proves you aren't
4/7/09 8:23 AM
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Seul
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This is absurd discussion, regardless. Everyone knows there are no tocqueville fans, only the people who were forced to read his work by cruel and sadistic teachers (who themselves have not read tocquville, just their goofy teacher's guides).

I'm actually convinced no one in history has ever enjoyed his writing, he just made it so impenetrable and dense that the people who were forced to read through it would sometimes accuse each other of not being bright enough to understand it.

This, of course, just lead to everyone who came into contact with his work giving it some sort of grudging praise out of fear of being called too stupid to grasp Tocqueville's ridiculously drawn-out, paragraph-long sentences.

In that sense, his brilliance is unquestioned, and I'm sure he laughed all the way to his grave (the bastard).
4/7/09 11:21 PM
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Tahiti Bo
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GaryG - 
Tahiti Bo - Not everyone that you don't understand is a whacko.

Some folks are just smarter than you. 
And the second part of your comment proves you aren't
HUH? What comment did I make?

Those comments were Tocqueville quotes.

Bugger off, gimpy.
 
4/7/09 11:23 PM
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Tahiti Bo
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Seul - This is absurd discussion, regardless. Everyone knows there are no tocqueville fans, only the people who were forced to read his work by cruel and sadistic teachers (who themselves have not read tocquville, just their goofy teacher's guides).

I'm actually convinced no one in history has ever enjoyed his writing, he just made it so impenetrable and dense that the people who were forced to read through it would sometimes accuse each other of not being bright enough to understand it.

This, of course, just lead to everyone who came into contact with his work giving it some sort of grudging praise out of fear of being called too stupid to grasp Tocqueville's ridiculously drawn-out, paragraph-long sentences.


 LOL.  So, because you don't understand it, everyone who says they do is lying?

Just admit that you don't get it.  No big deal, dude.  No one ever accused you of being a Rhodes Scholar anyway.
4/8/09 11:36 AM
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Seul
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I think I am too subtle for you.
4/8/09 2:07 PM
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Subadie
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Tahiti, settle down guy. The "second part" referred to is your comment that it has something to do with democracy.

Seul, everybody knows that great lawyers and judges quote Tocqueville.

I want to write a human rights law legal brief in a way that a great lawyer would(quoting Tocqueville), but I dont want to do the work of finding the quote myself.

The goofy teacher guides make it clear that the importance of equality of status was a foundation to what he believed was necessary for the functioning of a democracy; so there must be lots of good quotes available, but there are no good quotes in the goofy guides.
4/8/09 4:30 PM
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Tahiti Bo
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Seul - I think I am too subtle for you.

No... I just didn't think your ridiculous implication that he was fucking with everyone was even worth addressing.

Apparently, I was too subtle for you. 

   
4/8/09 4:34 PM
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Tahiti Bo
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Subadie - Tahiti, settle down guy. The "second part" referred to is your comment that it has something to do with democracy.


No.  I added that after his post to clarify that earlier post.

However, feel free to believe that Tocqueville's views on religion and democracy are unrelated.

4/8/09 4:37 PM
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Tahiti Bo
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The goofy teacher guides make it clear that the importance of equality of status was a foundation to what he believed was necessary for the functioning of a democracy; so there must be lots of good quotes available, but there are no good quotes in the goofy guides.

The "foundation" of Tocqueville's views is not to be found in his statements on democracy.  His conclusions about democracy are the result of his fundamental views on society, which are grounded in his views on religion.  If you want to talk about "foundations" of Tocqueville, you start there.  For Tocqueville, it was no accident that democracy sprung from the bosom of Christianity.

 
From Tocqueville:

The main business of religions is to purify, control, and restrain that excessive and exclusive taste for well-being which men acquire in times of equality.
 
It is the dissimilarities and inequalities among men which give rise to the notion of honor; as such differences become less, it grows feeble; and when they disappear, it will vanish too.
  
By and large the literature of a democracy will never exhibit the order, regularity, skill, and art characteristic of aristocratic literature; formal qualities will be neglected or actually despised. The style will often be strange, incorrect, overburdened, and loose, and almost always strong and bold. Writers will be more anxious to work quickly than to perfect details. Short works will be commoner than long books, wit than erudition, imagination than depth. There will be a rude and untutored vigor of thought with great variety and singular fecundity. Authors will strive to astonish more than to please, and to stir passions rather than to charm taste.
    
4/8/09 5:32 PM
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Seul
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"Seul, everybody knows that great lawyers and judges quote Tocqueville. "

"No... I just didn't think your ridiculous implication that he was fucking with everyone was even worth addressing.

Apparently, I was too subtle for you. "


I think I was too subtle for all of you, my post was a joke.

I was made to read democracy in America back in high school (and I was able to understand it, just like the majority of my classmates). As it was the first book that really criticized the fundamentals of American democracy (which is often held up as the arbiter of right in wrong in current political discourse) that I was exposed to, i found it to challenge many of my preconceptions about the primacy of our model of government.

I was referencing Tocqueville's complexity in a humorous fashion, as he writes in a relatively convoluted and slightly archaic fashion compared to what seems more common in writers today; I assumed that my sarcasm would be evident (who would really believe Tocqueville spent so much of his life on something that he intended to be an elaborate joke?), i was actually pretty surprised that you took it as a serious comment.

I'm not surpised that you didn't find that assertion worth addressing (in my mind, it's too absurd to be anything other than a joke), but I am monumentally surprised you are so oblivious to sarcasm.

I can also easily see the importance and usefulness of reading Tocqueville in the context of a career in Law.
4/8/09 11:00 PM
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Tahiti Bo
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 You are dicktucking because you got nailed.  At least you backed off.
4/8/09 11:43 PM
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Seul
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^^^^

That's okay. I understand that it likely threatens your view of yourself to say "oops, I took something seriously that was intended as a joke."



Just admit that you don't get it. No big deal, dude.

(how bitter your words must taste coming back at you! Oh, the sting! The horror! Your agony sustains me, thin-skinned e-adversary!)

*e-licks the tears that are no doubt falling in hot waves down tahiti-bo's face*

Delicious, delicious.....
4/9/09 9:52 PM
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Tahiti Bo
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 now you are going a bit overboard to play it off, Richard Tucker...

*pulls blank over Seul to 'tuck'  him in* 
4/9/09 9:59 PM
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Tahiti Bo
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OK, Subadie... of course I have been fucking around from the get-go... (too subtle for you Seul? lol... nice attempt to try to troll a troll...)

Anyway, as you finally noticed the first two quotes actually were from Tocqueville... though off topic, of course.

But here is another real one:

"There is nothing there which gives to workers a claim on the State. There is nothing in the [French] Revolution which forces the State to substitute itself in the place of the individual foresight and caution, in the place of the market, of individual integrity. There is nothing in it which authorizes the State to meddle in the affairs of industry or to impose its rules on it, to tyrannize over the individual in order to better govern him, or, as it is insolently claimed, to save him from himself. There is nothing in it but Christianity applied to politics.  Yes, the February Revolution must be Christian and democratic, but it must on no account be socialist. These words sum up all my thinking and I leave you with them." 
4/10/09 9:13 AM
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Seul
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" now you are going a bit overboard to play it off, Richard Tucker...

*pulls blank over Seul to 'tuck' him in* "

Maybe you meant you would pull a blanket over me? What is a blank? I find your tenderness strangely touching, in any case.

And you have no idea HOW FAR overboard I will go, don't push me broseph.

Whatever, it's clear that (at least insofar as this issue is concerned) we have irreconcilable differences.

The only course left to us is for me to challenge you to a cage match. Let me assure you, I am perfectly willing to fly anywhere in the continental US to prove an obscure and meaningless point on this internet discussion of ours; I will fly to your city of residence to continue our discussion with violence.

Let me also assure you, however, that the cost of my airfare will immediately become a deal-breaking issue if you show the slightest sign of accepting the gauntlet I have thrown at your feet.

If, for some reason, you seem willing to fly to me for our challenge match, I will just so "happen" to live on the opposite side of the country, in Alaska, or on another continent.

If you seem unwilling to jump through a bunch of hoops to fight a faceless stranger over a retarded point in an internet discussion, I'm going to immediately make a bunch of threads about how "when it came to fisticuffs, tahiti-bo backed down like a little bitch! Yeah!".

(I'm actually going to do that anyway, even if you're belligerent enough to force me to back out of the challenge I have issued you)

Also, RIchard Tucker (famed operatic tenor) died in 1975, so it's safe to say you've incorrectly guessed my identity.
4/10/09 9:17 AM
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Seul
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Also, if you REALLY push the issue, I will suddenly develop the maturity to say that I don't think silly internet discussions are worth fighting over (though I'm still going to make a bunch of threads about how you got scared and wouldn't fight me, I'll just wait a couple of days first).
4/10/09 3:25 PM
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Tahiti Bo
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Edited: 04/15/09 11:13 AM
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Seul - Also, if you REALLY push the issue, I will suddenly develop the maturity to say that I don't think silly internet discussions are worth fighting over (though I'm still going to make a bunch of threads about how you got scared and wouldn't fight me, I'll just wait a couple of days first).

Taking another step back, huh?  A bit late, Tucky.



 

 
4/11/09 3:22 PM
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Seul
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^^^

I am speechless at the disturbing nature of that photo.

What kind of creepiness did you have to wade through to find it (unless, for some reason, you already had it handy)?
4/15/09 11:13 AM
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Tahiti Bo
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4/17/09 8:06 AM
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Subadie
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MODERATOR: Can you please remove the thread. Its a bit out of hand

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